| --- Log opened Thu Aug 08 00:00:03 2013 |
| 00:21 | <&McMartin> | I AM POWERED BY RAGE |
| 00:21 | | * McMartin crackles with destructive energies, directs them at this code |
| 00:33 | | Derakon[AFK] is now known as Derakon |
| 00:33 | | * McMartin blinks, remembers he already solved this problem in Haskell years ago, starts translating that to C++ |
| 00:34 | | You're now known as TheWatcher[T-2] |
| 00:34 | <&McMartin> | std::monad<> |
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| 02:35 | < RichyB> | McMartin, can that be made to work? C++ doesn't have rank 2 types, AIUI? |
| 02:36 | <&McMartin> | I don't think so |
| 02:36 | <&McMartin> | This is actually a stream-y string transformer though |
| 02:36 | <&McMartin> | C++ is fucking awesome at those |
| 02:37 | | * McMartin just barely manages to resist including the adjective "expletive-deleted" from this checkin comment. |
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| 03:50 | <@celticminstrel> | Rank 2 types? |
| 03:57 | < RichyB> | You can have functions with polymorphic types in Haskell like, (\a -> (a:[])) has the type forall a. a -> [a] |
| 03:57 | < RichyB> | (\a -> a:[]) :: forall a. a -> [a] |
| 03:57 | <@celticminstrel> | :/ |
| 03:58 | < RichyB> | should read as `lambda a: [a]` would in Python, or (lambda (a) (cons a nil)) in Scheme |
| 03:58 | < RichyB> | and its type is, "for any given type 'a', take one 'a' and return a list of 'a's" |
| 03:59 | < RichyB> | With me so far? |
| 04:01 | < RichyB> | In Haskell 98 you could only put the "forall x y z." bit at the top of the function's type signature |
| 04:02 | < RichyB> | with rank-2 types, you can put foralls in more places. With rank-N types you can have them anywhere. |
| 04:03 | <@celticminstrel> | Okay... |
| 04:07 | < RichyB> | I think the original rationale was that you can use them to implement type-classes in user code, where previously they were only a language feature. |
| 04:08 | < RichyB> | You can also use a term like (forall s. s) as if it were `gensym` at the type level. |
| 04:19 | < RichyB> | I do not immediately know how to translate either of those statements into any of English, Scheme or Python. Nor C++, which is why I made the comment about C++ lacking (as far as I know) the feature. |
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| 05:06 | < Xires> | RichyB; ty for the explanation |
| 05:07 | < RichyB> | It made sense to you? o_O |
| 05:12 | < Xires> | RichyB; sense enough, yes |
| 05:12 | < RichyB> | That was more than I was hoping for, given how poorly I thought I'd put it. |
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| 16:41 | <&ToxicFrog> | <3 git stash |
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| 16:45 | <@TheWatcher> | ^-- |
| 16:52 | <@Tarinaky> | http://www.infoq.com/presentations/Robert-C.-Martin-Bad-Code |
| 16:53 | <@TheWatcher> | Finally got notification data going into the database, now I need to deal with actually processing it into useful emails/moodle posts/etc |
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| 17:07 | | * TheWatcher eyes that |
| 17:07 | <@TheWatcher> | "Was it a deadline, laziness, boredom, job security?" |
| 17:07 | <@TheWatcher> | He missed one |
| 17:07 | <@TheWatcher> | "Utter flaming incompetence" |
| 17:08 | <@Tarinaky> | He starts with the assumption that someone like you, of roughly the same skill wrote it. |
| 17:08 | <@Tarinaky> | Hence the question: "Have you ever been impeded by bad code? Why did you write it?2 |
| 17:09 | < Syka> | I know why I write bad code |
| 17:09 | < Syka> | it's mostly TheWatcher's extra reason though |
| 17:09 | <@Tarinaky> | I write bad code out of fear of bad code. |
| 17:10 | <@Tarinaky> | I'm only half way through. He could suggest sacrificing goats to the Elderthings yet. |
| 17:12 | <@Tarinaky> | Ia Linus Fhtagn, the black goat of the usenet with a foul mouth. |
| 17:15 | < ErikMesoy> | I write bad code because I have not enough experience. |
| 17:15 | <@Tarinaky> | I'm not sure I agree to the later assertion that manual testing doesn't count as code coverage. |
| 17:16 | <&ToxicFrog> | I do. It can't be automated and its repeatability is questionable at best. |
| 17:17 | <@Tarinaky> | If it's documented the repeatability is no worse than an automated test. |
| 17:18 | <@Tarinaky> | Because tests never have bugs, errors or any kind of ambiguity or failure. |
| 17:19 | <@Alek> | what Erik said. |
| 17:19 | <@Alek> | with the caveat that I write bad code because I do not yet know it is bad code. |
| 17:25 | <&ToxicFrog> | Tarinaky: but when tests have bugs, it is because they are correctly executing incorrect instructions. Manual tests introduce the additional failure mode of the person executing them making a mistake. |
| 17:26 | <@Tarinaky> | Train your monkey better? |
| 17:26 | < ErikMesoy> | We did lots of monkey manual testing when I worked at Opera Software. |
| 17:27 | <@Tarinaky> | Some stuff just can't be automated. >.< |
| 17:27 | <@Tarinaky> | Formalised is a good backup. |
| 17:27 | < Syka> | Tarinaky: with mocking, it most likely can |
| 17:27 | <@TheWatcher> | ErikMesoy: It never showed~ |
| 17:27 | < ErikMesoy> | TheWatcher: How so? |
| 17:28 | < Syka> | ErikMesoy: and now Opera seems to have migrated to monkey manual developing too :P |
| 17:28 | < ErikMesoy> | There was automated testing too, but I never got to touch those bits. |
| 17:28 | < ErikMesoy> | First year employees make better monkeys, I suppose. :p |
| 17:29 | <@Tarinaky> | Syka: Mocking is kindof the opposite of code coverage. "Well, we won't test this bit but we want to test something that depends on it." |
| 17:30 | < ErikMesoy> | There would be regular messages of "all you lot, drop what you're doing and start running this battery of tests for the Nth time on our 10.0.8.0.N build". |
| 17:35 | | * TheWatcher eyes this message from work "Do you have a strong opinion about which encoding should be used on the new website" (with the choice basically being utf-8 or ISO 8859-1) |
| 17:36 | <@TheWatcher> | I'm trying to work out how to adequately convey the strength of my feelings regarding anyone using ISO 8859-1 without resorting to profanity or statements that might become of interest to the metropolitan police. |
| 17:36 | | * Tarinaky doublechecks which one 8859-1 is. |
| 17:36 | <@TheWatcher> | Latin-1 |
| 17:37 | < ErikMesoy> | Tell your workplace that if they can't correctly identify ISO/IEC 8859-1, they probably shouldn't use it. |
| 17:39 | <@Tarinaky> | I constantly get surprised by how well UTF8 'just works' a lot of the time... |
| 17:40 | <@Tarinaky> | But then I don't do a lot of heavy duty string manipulation/perl. |
| 17:40 | <@TheWatcher> | Uh |
| 17:40 | <@Tarinaky> | Yeah. I know my experience runs countrary to everyone elses >.< |
| 17:40 | <@Tarinaky> | I don't know why. |
| 17:41 | <@Tarinaky> | I'll shut up and go away. |
| 17:41 | <@TheWatcher> | Well, no |
| 17:42 | <@TheWatcher> | Provided you really make sure that all the data coming into your script is in utf8, and you do the appropriate encoding and decoding, it just works in perl at least. The /trick/ is making damned sure everything is utf8 |
| 17:44 | <@Tarinaky> | In... most languages I've found that to be true. |
| 17:44 | <@Tarinaky> | Mix character encodings and you're gonna have a bad time. |
| 17:44 | <@TheWatcher> | Yeah |
| 17:45 | <@Tarinaky> | But you use UTF so you don't have to... that's more or less the only completely non-jingoistic thing going for it. |
| 17:47 | <@Tarinaky> | It handles everything... albeit sometimes badly. |
| 17:47 | < Azash> | http://slashdot.org/story/13/08/08/1313228/ms-windows-phone-8-wi-fi-vulnerable-c annot-be-patched |
| 17:50 | <@Tarinaky> | Only affects one encryption scheme though... Anyone here a sysadmin? |
| 17:51 | <@Tarinaky> | How bad is this in units of unplanned-pregnancies? |
| 17:52 | <&ToxicFrog> | Tarinaky: or "we want to test this bit that depends on production without actually making requests to production" |
| 17:53 | <&ToxicFrog> | "we want to test this bit that depends on a really expensive thing without invoking the expensive thing more often than necessary" |
| 17:53 | <@TheWatcher> | Tarinaky: from a quick look at it, it won't affect the majority of people using normal WPA2-PSK |
| 17:53 | <@Tarinaky> | ToxicFrog: Yeah, but that automatically means the expensive thing isn't being tested as thoroughly. |
| 17:54 | <@Tarinaky> | Which I think is close enough to what I said >.< |
| 17:54 | <&ToxicFrog> | Not really. |
| 17:54 | <&ToxicFrog> | You (should) have comprehensive tests for the expensive thing. |
| 17:55 | <&ToxicFrog> | The biggest pitfall is that you need to keep the mocks in sync with the thing they're mocking. |
| 17:55 | <@Alek> | but if the expensive thing is expensive per run, including testing, sometimes testing gets skimped on. |
| 17:56 | <@Alek> | should, yes, in an ideal world. |
| 17:56 | <@Alek> | but this world is far from ideal. |
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| 18:07 | <&Derakon> | <Boss> "We want to collect 90GB of data per hour for 24 hours. Of course we can't actually store that much data, but I assume it's trivial to just throw part of it out, right?" |
| 18:07 | <&Derakon> | Nevermind that the largest dataset we've yet tried to acquire was on the order of 5GB, period. |
| 18:07 | <&Derakon> | And that he wants to do this next Tuesday. |
| 18:07 | <@Tamber> | If you're just going to throw the data out, why collect it in the first place? *headscratch* |
| 18:07 | <@Tamber> | Is his hair pointy? |
| 18:08 | <&Derakon> | Because the process of collection has side effects. |
| 18:08 | <@Tarinaky> | If you're 'collecting' it in dev null... what part of this is collecting? |
| 18:08 | <&Derakon> | The software needs to be modified, potentially extensively, to even enable throwing out data in the first place. |
| 18:10 | <&Derakon> | The actual experiment isn't insane, but I'm a bit peeved that this was sprung on me with little warning while I also have a lot of other stuff going on. |
| 18:10 | < Azash> | Tarinaky: I suppose he means handling 90 gigs |
| 18:11 | <&Derakon> | The first thing I have to tackle is that the computer allocates enough RAM to store the entire dataset in memory, yeah. |
| 18:11 | <&Derakon> | We have a lot of RAM, but we don't have 90*24GB. |
| 18:12 | <@Tamber> | You *don't* have 2TB of RAM? What kinda hokey shop are *you* running?! |
| 18:12 | | * Tamber ducks |
| 18:13 | < Azash> | Does it all have to be in memory at once? |
| 18:13 | < Azash> | Not just parsed on-line? |
| 18:13 | <&Derakon> | It doesn't have to be, but that's where the extensive modifications come in. |
| 18:14 | <&Derakon> | I need to set up a ring buffer or something, and then make certain we can actually write out the data as fast as it comes in. |
| 18:21 | <&Derakon> | FWIW, the goal here is to examine what happens to yeast cells when you hit them with very short pulses of laser light (microsecond-duration) over a long period of time. |
| 18:22 | <&Derakon> | And the lasers are pretty intractably bound up with the cameras, hence why we have all this data we don't actually want. |
| 18:23 | <@Tamber> | Ahh. That makes more sense. |
| 18:28 | <@TheWatcher> | Yes, an illuminating answer, that |
| 18:56 | | * ToxicFrog sets TW on fire |
| 18:57 | < Syka> | ha |
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| 21:05 | <&ToxicFrog> | Why oh why oh why is iteritems() not the default iterator for dictionaries in Python |
| 21:06 | <&ToxicFrog> | why |
| 21:06 | < ErikMesoy> | Explain. |
| 21:06 | < ErikMesoy> | What is the default iterator and how is it different? |
| 21:06 | < Syka> | ToxicFrog: it is |
| 21:06 | < Syka> | ToxicFrog: (in py3) |
| 21:07 | <&Derakon> | The default in py2 appears to be to iterate over the keys. |
| 21:07 | < Syka> | that it does |
| 21:07 | < Syka> | iteritems() is a generator |
| 21:07 | < Syka> | they were not mandatory until python 2.3 |
| 21:07 | < Syka> | switching the implementation in the backend probably might have broken things |
| 21:07 | <&Derakon> | More importantly, iterating over both keys and values is usually preferred to iterating over just keys. |
| 21:08 | <&ToxicFrog> | ErikMesoy: the default iterator iterates over keys only. |
| 21:08 | < Syka> | oh thats right, iteritems() does tuples |
| 21:08 | < Syka> | so that would break older code |
| 21:09 | < Syka> | (or rather, it gives out tuples) |
| 21:09 | <&ToxicFrog> | "for key,value in dict" is an error; you want "for key in dict: value = dict[key]..." or "for key,value in dict.iteritems()" |
| 21:09 | <&Derakon> | It's common for me to do "for key, val in dict: ..." and get an "insufficient items to unpack" error. |
| 21:09 | < Syka> | so yeah |
| 21:09 | < Syka> | ToxicFrog: basically, it's not the default one because of code compat reasons! |
| 21:09 | < Syka> | which are fun~ |
| 21:09 | < Syka> | (but it is the default in py3) |
| 21:10 | | * Derakon sighs gently as a key piece of hardware gives up the ghost, again. |
| 21:10 | <&Derakon> | Why do we keep relying on this piece of shit when it keeps breaking? |
| 21:11 | <&Derakon> | I volunteered to get us switched over to a more standard, better-supported and more-capable device and my boss refused because he had bigger fish to fry. |
| 21:11 | <&Derakon> | Well, now he can't fry shit. |
| 21:11 | <&Derakon> | I hope he's happy. |
| 21:12 | < Syka> | since you mentioned lasers before |
| 21:12 | < Syka> | that's giving me all sorts of amusing mental images |
| 21:12 | <&Derakon> | Nah, this is a control card. |
| 21:13 | < Syka> | "GO AWAY, I'M BUSY FRYING THIS FISH" *shooting laser at a carp* |
| 21:13 | <&Derakon> | It sends digital and analog signals to different devices to control them. |
| 21:13 | < Syka> | well, right now |
| 21:13 | < Syka> | it seems it's *sunglasses* out of control |
| 21:14 | < Syka> | ...I'm assuming that replacements are going to be painful? |
| 21:14 | <&Derakon> | We have a backup, but IIRC it also doesn't work. |
| 21:14 | <&Derakon> | The card is only produced by one small company and they put it on legacy support years ago. |
| 21:14 | <&Derakon> | IIRC the only guy who knows how the thing works is the CEO. |
| 21:15 | <&Derakon> | Every time we send it for repairs it costs us like $2k. |
| 21:15 | <@Tamber> | "And he's off in the corner of the bar, crying" |
| 21:15 | <&Derakon> | (Cost of a replacement card from National Instruments: $3k plus however long it takes me to rewrite the control software) |
| 21:17 | < Syka> | "Too much effort and cost! That card is $3K and fixing this one is only $2K, we'll do that" |
| 21:17 | < Syka> | (that awfully reminds me of my old CEO) |
| 21:17 | < ErikMesoy> | OTOH, "rewrite the control software" is a way for all sorts of new problems to sneak in |
| 21:17 | < Syka> | with an internet upgrade |
| 21:18 | <&Derakon> | I'm pretty sure it's my time that he values more. |
| 21:18 | < Syka> | going on this fibre thing cost a shitload |
| 21:18 | < Syka> | but, also, we could get rid of all the ISDN rental and shit |
| 21:18 | <&Derakon> | Problem being that this is the weakest link in the system and we're SOL when it breaks. |
| 21:18 | < Syka> | but, naturally, one big thing costing a lot is worse than lots of little things costing elss |
| 21:18 | < Syka> | less* |
| 21:18 | <@Tamber> | ...and adding up to more in the end? |
| 21:19 | < Syka> | actually, not really |
| 21:19 | < Syka> | BUT, it did move two different offices to symmetric fibre |
| 21:19 | < Syka> | uh, symmetric ADSL, probably |
| 21:19 | < Syka> | and fibre to the main office |
| 21:19 | < Syka> | with free data transfer between offices, as it was a private WAN |
| 21:19 | <&Derakon> | Oh look, it started working again. |
| 21:20 | < Syka> | with instant rerouting to another site in case we needed it (eg. our email server) |
| 21:20 | <&Derakon> | Frickin' unreliable hardware. |
| 21:20 | < Syka> | + a whole lot of other shit |
| 21:20 | < Syka> | but nope |
| 21:20 | < Syka> | I had this whole plan, that our entire infrastructure was repeatable and decentralised |
| 21:21 | < Syka> | and that we could literally have everything in town fucked, and have IT be operational in six hours tops |
| 21:21 | < Syka> | and that if the main town gets wrecked, the failover at the airport would be green within three hours with only a day's data loss at maximum |
| 21:21 | < Syka> | but nope :( |
| 21:22 | < Syka> | 'why are you bothering with disaster planning, when my iphone isn't syncing'~ |
| 21:49 | <&McMartin> | 13:10 < Syka> "GO AWAY, I'M BUSY FRYING THIS FISH" *shooting laser at a carp* |
| 21:49 | <&McMartin> | Someone's playing Dwarf Fortress in another channel, and that's producing yet *another* mental image tangent |
| 21:49 | <@Tamber> | :D |
| 21:49 | <&McMartin> | (As carp are the second deadliest creature in DF) |
| 21:50 | <@Tamber> | Suddenly, giant sponge |
| 21:50 | <&ToxicFrog> | McMartin: what are the deadliest now? Still hippoes? |
| 21:51 | <&Derakon> | In terms of dwarf kills racked up, surely it must be other dwarves, at the hands of the hapless player. |
| 21:51 | <@Tamber> | :D |
| 21:54 | <&McMartin> | ToxicFrog: I was under the general impression that the Forgotten Demons were still the deadliest, though not as much as they once were. |
| 21:54 | <&Derakon> | In terms of raw stats, I get the impression that the randomly-generated "titans" have the greatest potential. |
| 21:54 | <@Tamber> | Well, they sorta lost a lot of their scariness when people started building farms in hell. |
| 21:55 | < ErikMesoy> | randomly-generated titans with nasty combo abilities |
| 21:55 | <&Derakon> | Since you could end up with e.g. an adamantine statue whose touch releases lethal neurotoxins. |
| 21:55 | < ErikMesoy> | e.g. fliers that breathe poisonous dust |
| 21:55 | < ErikMesoy> | anything with poisonous blood, which spatters all over dwarves |
| 21:55 | <&McMartin> | Derakon: Heh. This guy got a titan made of snow |
| 21:55 | <@Tamber> | And the titans, depending on what you get, range from the laughable; to the "it was laughable, until a week later when the entire military dropped dead, and promptly reanimated as abominations hell-bent on destroying all life." |
| 21:56 | <&McMartin> | I forget if it got one-shotted by someone fixing their crossbow or if it was the one taken down by a weasel hanging out outside the fortress |
| 21:56 | <@Tamber> | Creatures made of steam, in the former case. |
| 21:56 | <@Tamber> | Which can be taken down by a terrified peasant. |
| 22:11 | <&Derakon> | Email subject: "Built-in FAP for Lomb-Scargle?" |
| 22:11 | <&Derakon> | I have no idea what that means but it sounds naughty. |
| 22:14 | <&Derakon> | (Scientific computing mailing list) |
| 22:15 | <@TheWatcher> | ... |
| 22:15 | | * McMartin adds "Lomb-Scargling" to his list of pretend expletives. |
| 22:17 | <@TheWatcher> | Something to do with least squares spectral analysis, it seems. FAP = false alarm probability. |
| 22:17 | <@TheWatcher> | Probably. |
| 22:18 | <&Derakon> | Anyway, I'ma vanish now. |
| 22:18 | | Derakon [chriswei@Nightstar-a3b183ae.ca.comcast.net] has quit [[NS] Quit: leaving] |
| 22:22 | | Pandemic is now known as VirusJTG |
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| 22:46 | < Azash> | 23:45 <@S> #ifdef LOVE_LEGENDARY_UTF8_ARGV_HACK |
| 22:46 | < Azash> | 23:45 <@S> Oh boy here we go |
| 22:49 | <&McMartin> | LEGEND OF UTF8 ARGV HACK |
| 22:53 | | ErikMesoy is now known as ErikMesoy|sleep |
| 23:01 | < Azash> | McMartin: Do you know what it refers to? |
| 23:03 | <&McMartin> | No. If I had to guess it has to do with the fact that you can't guarantee what format argv is coming in as |
| 23:03 | < Azash> | Because I don't |
| 23:03 | < Azash> | But https://bitbucket.org/rude/love/src/7b1f10cd4dc6a642036585cb0b6fb3731adc838a/src /modules/love/love.cpp?at=default |
| 23:04 | <&McMartin> | I don't see it? Just a bunch of other legendary hacks that look like OS-specific #includes |
| 23:05 | <&McMartin> | My guess would be "no-op on Mac, which is generally UTF-8 locales by default, otherwise a couple of calls to CoreFoundation to do the conversion; Two syscalls on Windows to get the commandline as UTF-16 and then another to convert to UTF-8; and iconv forwarding on Linux" |
| 23:07 | <&McMartin> | This also reminds me; I'm going to need to roll out a simple UTF-8 codec in C soon for Monocle. |
| 23:08 | <&McMartin> | I've got a really nice one I wrote in Haskell a few years ago~ |
| 23:16 | < Azash> | McMartin: 00:02 < Azash> Because I don't |
| 23:16 | < Azash> | I just put the link there because it had more of them :P |
| 23:17 | <&McMartin> | Aha, OK |
| 23:17 | <&McMartin> | Anyway, my guess stands |
| 23:18 | <&McMartin> | They want to use UTF-8 everywhere, but they can't guarantee that because not all system locales are UTF-8 |
| 23:19 | <&McMartin> | So they have OS-specific code to do the conversion |
| 23:21 | < Azash> | Could well be |
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| 23:24 | < AnnoDomini> | http://www.tenthdimension.com/medialinks.php |
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| --- Log closed Fri Aug 09 00:00:19 2013 |