| --- Log opened Wed Jul 31 00:00:21 2013 |
| --- Day changed Wed Jul 31 2013 |
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| 01:11 | < RichyB> | Heheheh, an apology in the BitC project's source code documentation: "Yes, sadly, the type checker really is that complicated, and it is about to become more so" |
| 01:14 | <&ToxicFrog> | BitC? |
| 01:16 | < [R]> | oin? |
| 01:44 | < RichyB> | [R]: no. |
| 01:45 | < RichyB> | It's one of the (surprisingly many) projects that exists attempting to use some variation on dependent typed programming to produce a provably-safe systems programming language. |
| 01:45 | < RichyB> | Offhand I could name Frama-C, BitC, ATS and Ynot. There are more, I think. |
| 01:45 | <&Derakon> | Naming your provably-safe language "Ynot" seems ill-advised~ |
| 01:46 | < RichyB> | Mozilla's Rust kinda goes down this path but as far as I can tell, not to anything like the same extent. |
| 01:47 | < RichyB> | I mean, Rust seems to only have a type system with a lot of ways of tracking ownership of memory in it, rather than a type system that counts as a full-blown theorem verifier. |
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| 02:48 | <&McMartin> | Mmm. |
| 02:48 | <&McMartin> | Somebody's going to have a bad day real soon |
| 02:48 | <&McMartin> | Since I'm using the phrase "drastic measures" in this bug report. |
| 02:48 | < Vorntastic> | Uhoh |
| 02:49 | < Vorntastic> | oh god |
| 02:49 | <&Derakon> | This isn't like "ruler the size of a football field" kind of drastic, I assume~ |
| 02:50 | <&McMartin> | It's more like the "have this process intercept every mouse event on the system and consume them before anything sane can get it" |
| 02:50 | <&McMartin> | kind of "drastic" |
| 02:50 | <&Derakon> | Oh, this is the installer stuff you were ranting about elsechan? |
| 02:50 | <&McMartin> | No |
| 02:50 | <&McMartin> | This is a "bug report" that involves Windows working properly when the customer does not wish it to. |
| 02:50 | <&Derakon> | Fantastic. |
| 02:51 | <&McMartin> | To be fair, that describes about 70% of system-level coding. |
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| 02:52 | <&McMartin> | So anyway, yeah. |
| 02:52 | <&McMartin> | Either somebody doesn't get what they want, or somebody *does* get what they want, good and hard. |
| 02:53 | <&McMartin> | And either way, somebody's going to have a bad day |
| 02:54 | <@Reiv> | ... what? |
| 02:56 | <&McMartin> | It's an interaction between VMware and Windows 8. It does things that are clearly correct but that are nonoptimal for the system as a whole. |
| 02:57 | <&McMartin> | My considered engineering solution to this is "don't employ Windows 8 for this use case" but I'm supposed to also provide outlines towards Actual Solutions. |
| 02:57 | <&McMartin> | These will all involve breaking the Hell out of either Windows or Player~ |
| 02:58 | <&McMartin> | ...hm. Unless there's a standard Windows API for that, and this API also still works |
| 02:58 | | * McMartin digs through MSDN |
| 03:03 | | ktemkin is now known as ktemkin[awol] |
| 03:06 | | * McMartin discovers Mouse Sonar |
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| 05:51 | <@Alek> | "I can see, in a decade or two, admins trying to figure out packet loss in the teleport channels." |
| 05:56 | <@Reiv> | ? |
| 05:58 | <@Alek> | ? |
| 06:02 | < Turaiel> | ! |
| 06:07 | < [R]> | Reiv: basically it's a joke comparing the perfectly functioning technology in Sci-Fi with the reality that shit doesn't always magically work. |
| 06:09 | <@Reiv> | Oh. Ha. |
| 06:11 | <@Alek> | If programmers were doctors. "Doctor, my leg hurts!" "I don't know about that, but I have the same model leg and it's working perfectly." |
| 06:12 | < [R]> | lol |
| 06:12 | < [R]> | Or "What's the build number?" |
| 06:15 | <@Alek> | "Oh, you're build 1992.05.04.35132. That explains it, builds in the 1992.05.0X range had a nasty bug." |
| 06:16 | | ErikMesoy|sleep is now known as ErikMesoy |
| 06:18 | < [R]> | http://notalwaysworking.com/type-bigot-positive/30904 |
| 06:21 | <@Alek> | "Colleagues, please do not forget our scheduled teamdildoing on Friday." |
| 06:22 | < [R]> | Sounds like a porn shop. |
| 06:26 | <@Alek> | yeah, "The Freudian Slip" |
| 06:28 | <@Alek> | "Came back from the club, hungry. Looked in the fridge, saw some peeled, sliced raw potatoes. Fried them up. They turned out to be apples." |
| 06:44 | <@Reiv> | tasty! |
| 06:48 | <@Alek> | http://codepad.org/K3QkaGV7 |
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| 06:50 | <@Reiv> | ... so everything is a text file. |
| 06:50 | <@Reiv> | Yay. |
| 06:57 | < [R]> | ASSOC .exe=txtfile <-- how's notepad.exe going to open? |
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| 07:00 | <@Reiv> | ... aha. Clever. |
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| 07:03 | <@Alek> | ugh |
| 07:09 | < Syka> | [R]: i believe that explorer will directly exec it |
| 07:10 | < Syka> | i had some weirdness with someone overwriting .lnk |
| 07:11 | < Syka> | i think it half uses the association table, and half just does what it wants |
| --- Log closed Wed Jul 31 07:35:33 2013 |
| --- Log opened Wed Jul 31 07:40:37 2013 |
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| 07:51 | <@Alek> | well, the basic formats, bat, com, exe, may be hardcoded in. |
| 07:53 | <@Alek> | Valve condoms: 100% guarantee you will not have a third child. |
| 08:00 | < Syka> | nono |
| 08:00 | < Syka> | Alek: valve condom: guaranteed missed periods |
| 08:00 | < Syka> | :P |
| 08:04 | <@Alek> | ok, that one I don't quite get >_> |
| 08:34 | <@froztbyte> | http://www.jwz.org/blog/2013/07/hack-the-planet/ |
| 08:37 | < Syka> | Alek: conception is on valve time :D |
| 08:40 | <@Alek> | ._. |
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| 12:18 | < Karono> | Anyone got any tips for learning Python? I'm already familiar with C++ and C#. |
| 12:18 | | ktemkin[awol] is now known as ktemkin |
| 12:19 | < ktemkin> | Find a good book that just discusses the language features (e.g. a book that's targeted towards people who can already program), and read it in your spare time. |
| 12:19 | < ktemkin> | Find a task that you really want accomplished, and start working on it in Python. |
| 12:19 | < Syka> | Karono: apparently http://learnpythonthehardway.org/ is good |
| 12:20 | < Syka> | or rather http://learnpythonthehardway.org/book/ |
| 12:20 | < ktemkin> | Every time you start do write up a block, search to see if there's a better, more paradigmatic way to do it. |
| 12:20 | < ktemkin> | Learn Python the Hard Way looks terrible. |
| 12:20 | < ktemkin> | I haven't read more than the first couple of chapters, but it pedagogical methodology looks just plain wrong. |
| 12:20 | < Karono> | ktemkin: I like this approach. Not sure if I want to invest in books though; programming is just a hobby for me. |
| 12:21 | < Syka> | howso? the overview seems to cover most of the important bits of the language |
| 12:21 | < ktemkin> | Its main method ("type up the provided code examples") is just plain bad. |
| 12:22 | < Karono> | ktemkin: This is how I learned to program. Probably not the best approach, in hindsight. |
| 12:22 | < Karono> | I was young and stupid at the time though. |
| 12:22 | < Syka> | ktemkin: why? |
| 12:22 | < Syka> | ktemkin: writing out things makes you read it |
| 12:22 | < ktemkin> | If you had the right discipline, you could probably learn a lot from it-- but you could also learn a lot by looking at existing good code without it being framed as a pedagogical approach. |
| 12:23 | < Syka> | it's a way of making sure you read it, so you understand all the little bits |
| 12:23 | < Syka> | and hoping you make a typo |
| 12:23 | < Syka> | so that you have to go back and fault find |
| 12:24 | | * Tamber drops a magazine with an old BASIC type-in, on Syka. |
| 12:24 | < ktemkin> | Proper pedagogy, in general, comes from continued reinforcement of correct behaviors. That's how we've found people learn best, over a good portion of time. |
| 12:24 | <@Tamber> | I simultaneously loved, and loathed, those things. Masters of "you made a typo *somewhere*" |
| 12:25 | < ktemkin> | The reinforcement in Learn Python the Hard Way comes from producing syntactically correct programs, not from really understanding how to compose them. |
| 12:26 | < Syka> | ktemkin: unless you are a master programmer, actually programming is nowhere near a reinforcement of correct behaviours |
| 12:26 | < Syka> | you learn your best lessons when you're three thousand lines deep in a third party library, trying to figure out why the /hell/ it doesn't work |
| 12:26 | < Syka> | :P |
| 12:28 | < ktemkin> | There are a lot of different ways to learn. You /can/ stumble through learning programming via a whole gamut of methods-- a properly motivated person will learn /despite/ bad teaching methods. |
| 12:29 | < ktemkin> | That doesn't mean they wouldn't learn more effectively using a program that's actually grounded in teaching practices. |
| 12:29 | <@froztbyte> | ktemkin: pedagogical models need willing tutors |
| 12:30 | <@froztbyte> | anything else is already severely hamstrung because of that lack |
| 12:30 | < ktemkin> | To me, it seems more like Learn Python the Hard Way is more centered around a gimmick than a well-structured self-teaching method. |
| 12:30 | <@froztbyte> | that's actually one of the things I found fascinating about _why's poignant guide |
| 12:31 | <@froztbyte> | it had a fantastic way of imparting knowledge, rather than just codifying information |
| 12:31 | < ktemkin> | I don't think I learned anything from why's guide, but I definitely found it amusing. |
| 12:31 | <@froztbyte> | ktemkin: and yet it works for the newbie |
| 12:31 | <@froztbyte> | I've pointed 4 people at it and all 4 learned well from it |
| 12:31 | < Syka> | why's guide? |
| 12:31 | <@froztbyte> | I think that's the trick |
| 12:31 | <@froztbyte> | Syka: _why's poignant guide to ruby |
| 12:31 | < ktemkin> | http://mislav.uniqpath.com/poignant-guide/ <-- Mirror. |
| 12:31 | < Karono> | "Type the following text into a single file named ex1.py. This is important as Python works best with files ending in .py." |
| 12:31 | <@froztbyte> | Syka: actually worth a read |
| 12:31 | < Karono> | Isn't that just a blatant lie? |
| 12:32 | < ktemkin> | "Works best" isn't the same as "only works with". |
| 12:32 | <@froztbyte> | Karono: welllll |
| 12:32 | <@froztbyte> | Karono: consider windows |
| 12:32 | < Syka> | yeah, windows |
| 12:32 | <@froztbyte> | and glhf getting shit done without extensions |
| 12:32 | < Syka> | it won't work at all on windows |
| 12:32 | < Syka> | that's what's known as a half lie |
| 12:33 | <@Alek> | a partial truth. |
| 12:33 | < Syka> | it's correct enough, because saying 'don't do that, because you shouldn't" is easier than explaining how the hell Windows' file association works |
| 12:33 | <@froztbyte> | what's the halflife of that lie? |
| 12:33 | < Syka> | froztbyte: as long as it takes them to switch to *nix |
| 12:33 | < Syka> | :P |
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| 12:33 | <@froztbyte> | rofl |
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| 12:34 | < Syka> | do modules require .py as well? |
| 12:34 | < ktemkin> | Another thought: where does python cache its bytecode, if the filename's not .py? |
| 12:35 | <@froztbyte> | the module loading semantics of python is something I've actually avoided learning about so far |
| 12:35 | < Syka> | yes, it does |
| 12:35 | < Syka> | __init__ doesn't work |
| 12:35 | <@froztbyte> | ktemkin: .pyc |
| 12:35 | <@froztbyte> | by default, anyway |
| 12:35 | < ktemkin> | It still uses a .pyc, even if your file extension is differet? |
| 12:35 | < Syka> | you need __init__.py |
| 12:35 | <@froztbyte> | ktemkin: good question, I guess |
| 12:35 | < Syka> | everything else is fine |
| 12:35 | <@froztbyte> | but I'm not about to go find out |
| 12:35 | <@froztbyte> | got too much else to do today ;p |
| 12:36 | < Syka> | okay so |
| 12:36 | < Syka> | from quick experimenting |
| 12:36 | < Syka> | to 'import', it needs to be .py |
| 12:36 | < Syka> | (or pyc/etc) |
| 12:39 | < Syka> | so it seems it is not a lie |
| 12:41 | < Syka> | froztbyte: i have already read a book about js this week |
| 12:42 | < Syka> | froztbyte: i am afraid of reading this python book for more than a few pages, lest I start drinking the rails and ember.js koolaid |
| 12:42 | < Syka> | and never recover :( |
| 12:42 | <@froztbyte> | s/python/ruby/ itym |
| 12:42 | <@froztbyte> | but no, don't worry |
| 12:42 | < Syka> | uh ruby |
| 12:42 | <@froztbyte> | ruby is infuriating enough |
| 12:42 | <@froztbyte> | so that won't happen |
| 12:42 | < Syka> | see, the js book has already brain damaged me |
| 12:42 | <@froztbyte> | ruby's kinda neat |
| 12:42 | <@froztbyte> | but oh god so many environmental problems |
| 12:42 | < Syka> | now i don't know my pythons from my rubies to my perls |
| 12:42 | < ktemkin> | I always think it's odd when pythonistas crticise ruby |
| 12:43 | < Syka> | except they all existed in indiana jones |
| 12:43 | <@froztbyte> | like, rubygems. aaaarekjrkahjkdhasd gems. |
| 12:43 | < Syka> | ktemkin: i have seen two people brought to tears due to ruby private envs |
| 12:43 | < Syka> | and only seen one brought to tears over the whole of python :P |
| 12:43 | <@froztbyte> | and the typical deployment styles people end up going with |
| 12:44 | < Syka> | (although, that one person is a Java developer) |
| 12:44 | <@froztbyte> | (now, don't get me wrong, python's distribution stuff is not exactly wonderful, but it's not as fucking broken either) |
| 12:44 | < Syka> | i dunno, pythonenvwrapper seems to fix things a little |
| 12:44 | < ktemkin> | I dunno. I never really had any problems with rubygems. |
| 12:45 | < Syka> | at least, it doesn't seem shockingly bad |
| 12:45 | < ktemkin> | Though I came into Ruby when solutions like bundler already existed. |
| 12:45 | < Syka> | ktemkin: every time i install something through rubygems, i'm not sure if it's crashed without telling me |
| 12:46 | < Syka> | because the ruby mirrors seem to be at least 10x slower than pypi, and there's no feedback :/ |
| 12:46 | < ktemkin> | Due to the delay bef-- |
| 12:46 | < ktemkin> | I could see that being maddening, yes. |
| 12:46 | < Syka> | yeah, it sits there |
| 12:46 | < Syka> | i hit enter twice, just in case it didnt fire |
| 12:47 | < Syka> | and then it's suddenly like HA HA I WAS WORKING THE ENTIRE TIME |
| 12:47 | < Syka> | although, the most enraging thing i have ever seen |
| 12:47 | < Syka> | PIL/Pillow, or that xml library for python |
| 12:47 | < Syka> | both require random-ass .h files |
| 12:48 | | * TheWatcher readsup, sees mention of the r-word, breaks out the protective wards and pentagrams |
| 12:50 | <@froztbyte> | hahaha |
| 12:52 | < ktemkin> | I reserve the arcade wards for the things that really need it. |
| 12:52 | <~Vornicus> | executing a python file directly does not generate a .pyc |
| 12:52 | <~Vornicus> | I know you can call python to make it generate a .pyc from a chosen file and I'm not sure how it handles that |
| 12:52 | < ktemkin> | Vornicus: No, that's true; and we discussed at the same time that not using .py breaks import. |
| 12:53 | < ktemkin> | Vornicus: Yeah, but doesn't it put the compiled file in the __pycache__ directory? |
| 12:53 | < ktemkin> | Under an already-mangled filename? |
| 12:53 | < ktemkin> | *the local |
| 12:53 | <~Vornicus> | I never even heard of __pycache__ so idunno~ |
| 12:54 | < Syka> | no, it puts it in the folder |
| 12:54 | < Syka> | or rather |
| 12:54 | < Syka> | in the same folder as the file |
| 12:54 | < ktemkin> | Syka: It puts it in the same folder as the .py, unless you call it manually. |
| 12:54 | < Syka> | yeah |
| 12:54 | < ktemkin> | In which case, it seems to create a __pycache__ folder, at least on my system. |
| 12:55 | < Syka> | i hate when i delete the .pys |
| 12:55 | < Syka> | and it keeps working |
| 12:55 | < Syka> | because the .pyc is still there :( |
| 12:55 | < Syka> | ktemkin: huh |
| 12:55 | < Syka> | ohhhh |
| 12:55 | <@froztbyte> | Syka: alias goddamnfuckit='find . -name *.pyc -exec rm {} \;' |
| 12:55 | < Syka> | that's py3 |
| 12:56 | < Syka> | "Python 3.2 implements the __pycache__ scheme whereby all the .pyc files go into a directory named __pycache__ ." |
| 12:56 | < Syka> | yeah, i only use py2.7 ('cos Twisted) |
| 12:57 | < Syka> | so that'd explain why that doesnt happen for me |
| 12:57 | <@froztbyte> | there's a python 3? |
| 12:57 | <@froztbyte> | what on earth did they go do that for |
| 12:58 | <@froztbyte> | there wasn't even a 2.8 yet |
| 12:58 | < ktemkin> | It goes by the semantic versioning convention. |
| 12:58 | < Syka> | froztbyte: wait, what python 3? |
| 12:58 | <~Vornicus> | python 3 because they wanted to fix some stupid things like "print is a statement not a function" |
| 12:58 | < ktemkin> | =P |
| 12:58 | < ktemkin> | Yes, which was definitely worth breaking compatibility and effectively splitting the language in two. |
| 12:59 | < Syka> | Vornicus: `from __future__ import print_function` at least tides over the 2.6+ folks |
| 12:59 | <@Alek> | anyone who's smart stays with 2.7 >_> |
| 13:00 | <@froztbyte> | honestly, I expect "that which is py2" to evolve further under pypy |
| 13:00 | <@froztbyte> | py3 seems like a gigantic waste of effort |
| 13:01 | < Xon> | <Syka> you learn your best lessons when you're three thousand lines deep in a third party library, trying to figure out why the /hell/ it doesn't work |
| 13:01 | < Xon> | there is a special level of hell when trying to debug a php site which appears to have been fucked over as a team effort of half a dozen people with only part-time to work on it |
| 13:02 | < Syka> | Xon: well, there's certainly a lesson therer |
| 13:02 | <@froztbyte> | hahaha |
| 13:02 | < Syka> | Xon: "run away" |
| 13:02 | < ktemkin> | Why does my brain translate that to "Moodle"? |
| 13:02 | < Syka> | oh god moodle |
| 13:02 | < Syka> | i went to SIDE, the School for Isolated & Distance Education, here in WA, Aus |
| 13:02 | < Syka> | for several subjects |
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| 13:03 | < Syka> | they switched to Moodle, and they always went on about how the creator of moodle went to SIDE for highschool |
| 13:03 | < Syka> | (or rather, took SIDE subjects) |
| 13:03 | < Syka> | and after six months of wrangling with attempting to use it, I was thinking 'WHY ARE YOU PROUD OF THIS' |
| 13:03 | < ktemkin> | The worst part is that when Moodle is hopelessly broken, their development leads will actually peck to death new developers for using /good practices/. |
| 13:04 | < Xon> | Syka, I'm doing slash & burn to clear out the worst parts but there is a fair bit of time presure and it /almost/ works |
| 13:04 | < Xon> | ktemkin, what. |
| 13:04 | < Syka> | as a west australian, i am sorry for moodle |
| 13:04 | < Xon> | =p |
| 13:05 | <@froztbyte> | Syka: the scary part |
| 13:05 | < ktemkin> | I can't seem to fix anything without them nagging about their "coding style", which is horrid. |
| 13:05 | <@froztbyte> | Syka: is that the competition is often worse |
| 13:05 | < Syka> | yeah, it is |
| 13:05 | < Syka> | i used blackboard 10 in my brief stint of uni |
| 13:05 | < ktemkin> | That's why I'm stuck using it. |
| 13:05 | < Syka> | dear fucking lord |
| 13:05 | < ktemkin> | I'd love to strike out and develop my own, but it'd take years. |
| 13:05 | < ktemkin> | Blackboard is terrible; Canvas is essentially a toy. |
| 13:06 | < Syka> | hmm there was an explosion outside |
| 13:06 | <@Alek> | get together with a gang of like-minded "good practices" coders, collaborate to make a replacement. |
| 13:06 | <@Alek> | Syka: Skynet awoke? |
| 13:07 | <@Tamber> | Worse. Syknet. |
| 13:07 | < Syka> | nah, i havent got the syknet satellite in orbit yet |
| 13:07 | < Syka> | i mean |
| 13:07 | < Syka> | imagine a distributed computing network of just me |
| 13:07 | < Syka> | it would be awesome |
| 13:07 | < Syka> | also, terrifying |
| 13:08 | < ktemkin> | At one point, their core devs actually tore about my unit tests because they didn't look like this: https://github.com/moodle/moodle/blob/master/question/type/shortanswer/tests/que stion_test.php |
| 13:08 | < ktemkin> | I'm pretty sure their core policy is "Repeat yourself as much as possible" |
| 13:08 | < Syka> | first, I will go for the php devs |
| 13:08 | < Syka> | secondly, i will go for the php 3rd party devs |
| 13:08 | < Syka> | then probably get bored and indiscriminately kill everyone |
| 13:09 | < Syka> | ktemkin: heh |
| 13:09 | < Xon> | Syka, I'm fairly sure the first two would be indistinguishable to the 3rd =p |
| 13:10 | < Syka> | well, it's like a bag of M&Ms |
| 13:10 | < Syka> | you eat the red ones first, then everything else |
| 13:11 | < Syka> | because the red ones taste the best |
| 13:11 | < Xon> | lol |
| 13:12 | < Syka> | leaving the rest of the bag a sea of multicoloured flavour mediocrity |
| 13:12 | < ktemkin> | Buh. Now I have to go start filling out academic dishonesty paperwork-- one of my distance learning students decided to ask his quiz questions to stack overflow. |
| 13:12 | < Syka> | ktemkin: hah |
| 13:12 | < ktemkin> | Then copy the first person who replied. |
| 13:13 | < ktemkin> | Who... wasn't typically right. |
| 13:13 | < Syka> | did you downvote their SO question |
| 13:13 | < Syka> | :P |
| 13:14 | < ktemkin> | I did, at that; and upvoted the comment "We're not here to do your homework for you". |
| 13:14 | < ktemkin> | Imagine that. |
| 13:15 | < ktemkin> | He used a pseudonym to "protect his identity", but submitted the same (non-working) answers as the (fairly ignorant person) who responded to him, verbatim. |
| 13:15 | < ktemkin> | Didn't even bother to test them, just submitted them to the automatic grading system. |
| 13:17 | | * Alek facepalms. |
| 13:18 | < ktemkin> | The worst part is that this is a second instance of cheating on this students' part; so I will have to testify at a hearing to see if he'll be expelled. |
| 13:19 | | * Alek repalms. |
| 13:19 | < ktemkin> | If he's found guilty, it will appear on his transcripts; and other universities/employers won't be able to inquire as to his educational status without hearing the letter of reprimand. |
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| 13:20 | < ktemkin> | I mean, a semester of university costs a lot of money. If you're five semesters in any you wind up having that happen... you've probably wasted most or all of it. |
| 13:27 | < Xon> | no kidding |
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| 19:07 | < AnnoDomini> | This is new. A captcha that has you solve a jigsaw puzzle. |
| 19:08 | < [R]> | I'd like to see how captcha games work implementation wise |
| 19:08 | < [R]> | I've seen them before. |
| 19:10 | < [R]> | Just not how they work on the backend. |
| 19:10 | < ErikMesoy> | Sounds clever. |
| 19:11 | < [R]> | Sounds like something that's easy to fuck up. |
| 19:19 | < Syka> | well, not really |
| 19:20 | < Syka> | the way the captcha works is that the provider has an applet thing, which it gives you a sort of session key for |
| 19:21 | < Syka> | then when you submit it, the web service contacts the provider with the session key and the entered data, and the provider responds yes/no |
| 19:21 | < Syka> | so as long as you can get the output of the 'game' to be something that can be presented in a form, it works just as it did before |
| 19:22 | < Syka> | say, instead of words, it's just the order of chess pieces in x-y, delimited by commas |
| 19:53 | | Turaiel is now known as Turaiel[Offline] |
| 20:09 | <@TheWatcher> | .... |
| 20:09 | <@TheWatcher> | Because captchas aren't already fucking annoying enough |
| 20:18 | < ErikMesoy> | Captchas will continue to be annoying until we start having mass public executions of spammers or something. |
| 20:19 | <@TheWatcher> | I like this option, and will glady hasten them into the waiting arms of oblivion. |
| 20:25 | < ErikMesoy> | Is there any problem you can't solve with mass public executions of the appropriate criminal class, like spammers, PHP developers, or youtube commenters? |
| 20:31 | < Syka> | lack of stupid people to test cosmetics on? |
| 20:43 | <&McMartin> | ErikMesoy: It's hard to keep secret the fact that a secret is being kept. |
| 20:45 | <&McMartin> | http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php?date=20031017 |
| 20:45 | <&McMartin> | Nearly ten years old, still the canonical problem where Killing People doesn't work |
| 20:45 | <&McMartin> | And worse, you lose your hat |
| 20:46 | <&ToxicFrog> | The whole "mass public executions" thing implies that it's not meant to be a secret |
| 20:46 | <&McMartin> | Right |
| 20:47 | <&McMartin> | I'm saying, say your problem is "you have a secret, and you want to keep it secret, and you want to keep secret that you have a secret you are keeping secret" |
| 20:47 | < Syka> | my head hurts |
| 20:47 | <&McMartin> | This is a problem that isn't really amenable to mass public executions |
| 20:47 | <&McMartin> | Syka: Well, there are nominally secret societies that advertise their existence |
| 20:47 | < ErikMesoy> | I'll grant you that. Let me try a more restricted version: Is there any non-information-theoretic problem you can't solve with mass public executions of the appropriate criminal class? |
| 20:47 | <&McMartin> | They are "secret" because they keep their membership lists secret. |
| 20:48 | <&McMartin> | You can keep *those* secret with mass public executions |
| 20:48 | <&McMartin> | But you couldn't keep *the existence of the society* secret with them. |
| 20:48 | <@TheWatcher> | I fear we are getting away from the point here: killing spammers. |
| 20:49 | <&McMartin> | SpammerAssassin? |
| 20:49 | <&McMartin> | I heard a tale once, from a professor |
| 20:49 | <&McMartin> | Of someone she knew who set up distributed software to DDoS spam origin sites. |
| 20:50 | <&McMartin> | And who wound up getting death threats from the Russian Mafia as a result |
| 20:50 | <&McMartin> | Which suggests a solution: Break the back of international organized crime, break the back of spam. |
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| 21:45 | <@TheWatcher> | We recently got a new bookshelf, so in the process of moving the books I decided to rearrange them a bit. This seems to work better, somehow: http://fleet.starforge.co.uk/images/books.jpg |
| 21:46 | <&McMartin> | Heh |
| 21:46 | <&McMartin> | ...man |
| 21:47 | <&McMartin> | That's the version of the SuperBible I have. The one that refers almost exclusively to function calls that opengl.org no longer admits have ever existed |
| 21:47 | <@TheWatcher> | Yeah |
| 21:48 | <@TheWatcher> | I keep meaning to get the new version, but since I'm currently up to my armpits in thief coding, I don't really need it |
| 21:48 | <&McMartin> | Heh |
| 21:48 | <&McMartin> | Also, the relevant data is all online~ |
| 21:48 | <&McMartin> | (Also, there's this rupture in compatibility between 2.1 and 3.x that means that 2.1 is generally what you Actually Wanted To Target, Anyway) |
| 21:50 | < [R]> | Thief coding? |
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| 21:50 | <&McMartin> | He's been hacking on (mods to?) the engine for the old games Thief and Thief II. |
| 21:52 | < [R]> | Ah |
| 21:52 | <@TheWatcher> | Script writing (which is a misnomer, really, as they're really c++ classes compiled into dlls with some glue code) |
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| 21:55 | <&ToxicFrog> | I wonder how hard it would be to add a "script" that is actually a Lua interface to the Dark engine. |
| 22:01 | <@TheWatcher> | Telliamed started it with http://dromed.whoopdedo.org/lgscript/index |
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| 22:01 | <@TheWatcher> | It works, I believe, but I've no idea how well or how completely |
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| 22:03 | <&Derakon> | So I've spent a decent amount of time these past few months working on a program. |
| 22:04 | <@TheWatcher> | (it also suffers from the same problem as the c++ lg library code: the documentation is largely execrable (incomplete, ambiguous, or outright inaccurate)) |
| 22:04 | <&Derakon> | This last Monday bossman goes "Y'know, [other lab] does something very similar to this, we should check out how they do things." |
| 22:04 | <&Derakon> | So I contact them and get a copy of their code. |
| 22:04 | <&Derakon> | Why, exactly, did I expect it to be in remotely good style? ;_; |
| 22:04 | <&ToxicFrog> | TheWatcher: at first glance it looks ok apart from half the documentation being TBW |
| 22:04 | <&ToxicFrog> | And I'm having trouble coming up with a reason for stringname syntax to exist |
| 22:05 | <&ToxicFrog> | Derakon: head trauma resulting in inability to extrapolate future outcomes from past ones? |
| 22:05 | <&Derakon> | FunctionMode=LM_scalar;F=f;Init1(x,y,sigma,p,hold); |
| 22:05 | <&McMartin> | Long exposure to your own code~ |
| 22:05 | <&Derakon> | I think that must be it, McM~ |
| 22:06 | <@TheWatcher> | Derakon: ... eugh |
| 22:06 | <&McMartin> | When was Seb Purge Day? |
| 22:06 | <&Derakon> | He left before I ever showed up. |
| 22:06 | <&McMartin> | No, I mean, when you finally purged the code of his miasma |
| 22:06 | <&Derakon> | Ha, like that'll ever completely happen. |
| 22:06 | <&McMartin> | (I overstate; while you were doing this, I was hearing worse from guys at Yahoo dealing with *literally* insane Inktomi code) |
| 22:07 | <&Derakon> | All of the really nasty stuff will be gone as soon as I can push version 1.0 of the new cockpit program. |
| 22:07 | <&Derakon> | The remaining Sebastian code is mostly device drivers and a couple of OpenGL widgets. |
| 22:07 | <&Derakon> | I don't touch the drivers because they work, and there's really only a few ways to make OpenGL do what you want. |
| 22:08 | <&Derakon> | How can code be literally insane, BTW? |
| 22:08 | <&ToxicFrog> | McMartin: insane how? Tell! |
| 22:09 | | * ToxicFrog is working with the cthonian horror known as BORGMON today |
| 22:09 | <@TheWatcher> | ... BORGMON. |
| 22:09 | <@TheWatcher> | I... wat |
| 22:10 | <&Derakon> | Oddly enough, the first thing I think of when I see "borg" is the automatic Angband player. |
| 22:11 | <&ToxicFrog> | TheWatcher: Borg Monitor - it's been discussed in a few AMAs and the like. It's the monitoring and reporting system for the Google backend. |
| 22:16 | <@TheWatcher> | Aha. |
| 22:21 | <&ToxicFrog> | Hey, the distributed build system has stopped working. Time to go home :D |
| 22:21 | <&Derakon> | Heh. |
| 22:24 | <&McMartin> | ToxicFrog: There are three details that like to show up for this guy |
| 22:24 | <&McMartin> | one of them is that the code was littered with "return 18/0", sometimes multiple times in the same basic block. |
| 22:25 | <&McMartin> | Thousands of instances of it |
| 22:25 | <&McMartin> | The other is that the various classes were named after large buildings from fiction, like MinasTirith and MinasMorgul |
| 22:25 | <&Derakon> | Someone didn't know how to raise exceptions? |
| 22:25 | <&McMartin> | Derakon: This was all unreachable code |
| 22:25 | <&Derakon> | Ah. |
| 22:25 | <&McMartin> | You'd just be going along and then something like |
| 22:25 | <&McMartin> | if 1 == 3: |
| 22:25 | <&McMartin> | return 18/0 |
| 22:25 | <&McMartin> | return 18/0 |
| 22:26 | <&Derakon> | Just to make sure |
| 22:26 | <@TheWatcher> | ... |
| 22:26 | <&McMartin> | Return it REALLY HARD |
| 22:26 | <&McMartin> | Now, having the classes named MinasTirith or whatever might be OK, because there were also reams of documentation |
| 22:26 | <&McMartin> | ... reams of documentation that explained the history of Minas Tirith in Middle Earth, and had no connection to the code itself |
| 22:27 | <&McMartin> | In the actual code, general joys like "it turns out that if you add a debugging column to a database everything crashes" |
| 22:27 | <&Derakon> | That sounds like someone who was being payed by the kloc. |
| 22:28 | <&Derakon> | Er, paid. |
| 22:28 | <&McMartin> | And then the guy slao tended to organize and name his files such that they would form perfectly justified English text when ls'd in an 80-column window |
| 22:28 | <&McMartin> | *also |
| 22:28 | <&McMartin> | slao? |
| 22:28 | <&McMartin> | So yeah |
| 22:28 | <&Derakon> | ...so you'd ls a directory and get a paragraph of Tolkein? |
| 22:28 | <&McMartin> | The guys that had to work with his systems referred to it as "a broken clock that we check twice a day". It was completely unmodifiable and for whatever reason their boss could not get rid of the dude |
| 22:28 | <&McMartin> | Pretty much |
| 22:29 | <&McMartin> | Now, speaking of insanity |
| 22:29 | | * McMartin starts looking into UI hijacking in Win32 |
| 22:30 | <&Derakon> | MUST EAT ALL THE EVENTS |
| 22:30 | <&McMartin> | Actually, here I want to synthesize them |
| 22:30 | | * McMartin hits up gamedev sites, since he usually sees this in windowed FPSen~ |
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| 22:31 | <&Derakon> | Oh, synthesizing events tends to be much easier. |
| 22:31 | <&Derakon> | Since you don't have to subvert the event queue, just add to it. |
| 22:31 | <&McMartin> | The trick is, Windows does event queues correctly >_> |
| 22:31 | <&Derakon> | Meaning, what, FIFO? |
| 22:32 | <&McMartin> | Normally if you tell a button "hey, you just got a mouse enter and then a click!" the mouse doesn't actually hie itself over there so you can automate tasks in background without disrupting the user |
| 22:32 | <&McMartin> | But *for once* I need to do some disrupting |
| 22:32 | <&McMartin> | Not sure if that's going to mean posting the messages to NULL or if there's some BeDisruptiveAndDoThisThing() call |
| 22:32 | <&McMartin> | Thus, digging |
| 22:33 | <&Derakon> | So you need to control the mouse through software? |
| 22:33 | <&McMartin> | Get the mouse to stop controlling things, actually, but yeah, that. |
| 22:33 | <&McMartin> | SetCursorPos() looks like a good place to start. |
| 22:33 | <&McMartin> | It's not *entirely* what I want, I think, but it's very close. |
| 22:34 | <&McMartin> | (Ideally, I'd be able to say "There is no mouse pointer; give me mouse motion events as if they are purely relative") |
| 22:34 | <&McMartin> | (The usual way of doing this appears to be to reset the mouse location to the center of the window every frame) |
| 22:34 | <~Vornicus> | Yeah, last i knew /everybody/ does it that way |
| 22:35 | <&McMartin> | Huh, mouse "capture" isn't what I expected it to be |
| 22:35 | <&McMartin> | That would be another good thing to know |
| 22:35 | <&McMartin> | It must be manually using SetCursorPos to keep you in bounds |
| 22:35 | <~Vornicus> | Looks like your Drastic Measures are still being drastic? |
| 22:36 | <&McMartin> | I define Drastic as "synthesizing user events or hijacking system calls" and we're still kinda looking at both here |
| 22:36 | <&McMartin> | Defining it as "looking like malware" ends up being too broad >_> |
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