| --- Log opened Wed Jul 24 00:00:17 2013 |
| 00:05 | | Vornotron is now known as Vornicus |
| 00:05 | | mode/#code [+qo Vornicus Vornicus] by ChanServ |
| 00:28 | | himi [fow035@Nightstar-5d05bada.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 121 seconds] |
| 00:30 | | Turaiel[Offline] is now known as Turaiel |
| 00:43 | | Karono [Karono@9C034E.4BE65E.E00AF8.FDA077] has joined #code |
| 01:03 | | Karono [Karono@9C034E.4BE65E.E00AF8.FDA077] has quit [Ping timeout: 121 seconds] |
| 01:04 | | Vornicus [Vorn@Nightstar-221158c7.sd.cox.net] has quit [[NS] Quit: Leaving] |
| 01:56 | | Karono [Karono@9C034E.4BE65E.E00AF8.FDA077] has joined #code |
| 02:02 | | Typh|offline [Typherix@Nightstar-7dc8031d.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Client closed the connection] |
| 02:02 | | Turaiel [Brandon@Nightstar-7dc8031d.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Client closed the connection] |
| 02:02 | | Turaiel [Brandon@Nightstar-7dc8031d.mi.comcast.net] has joined #code |
| 02:05 | | Typh|offline [Typherix@Nightstar-7dc8031d.mi.comcast.net] has joined #code |
| 02:08 | | RichyB [RichyB@D553D1.68E9F7.02BB7C.3AF784] has quit [[NS] Quit: Gone.] |
| 02:09 | | himi [fow035@D741F1.243F35.CADC30.81D435] has joined #code |
| 02:09 | | mode/#code [+o himi] by ChanServ |
| 02:11 | | RichyB [RichyB@D553D1.68E9F7.02BB7C.3AF784] has joined #code |
| 02:17 | | Karono [Karono@9C034E.4BE65E.E00AF8.FDA077] has quit [Ping timeout: 121 seconds] |
| 02:22 | | Karono [Karono@9C034E.4BE65E.E00AF8.FDA077] has joined #code |
| 02:27 | | Orth is now known as Reiv |
| 02:29 | | Karono [Karono@9C034E.4BE65E.E00AF8.FDA077] has quit [Client closed the connection] |
| 02:29 | | Karono [Karono@9C034E.4BE65E.E00AF8.FDA077] has joined #code |
| 02:34 | | Vorntastic [Vorn@Nightstar-e1dc1a33.sub-70-211-1.myvzw.com] has joined #code |
| 02:36 | < Reiv> | Ladies and gentlemen. As of ~8pm last night, Orthia and I are now engaged. <g> |
| 02:39 | <&McMartin> | \o/ |
| 02:40 | | VirusJTG [VirusJTG@Nightstar-09c31e7a.sta.comporium.net] has quit [[NS] Quit: Program Shutting down] |
| 02:40 | | * McMartin also ponders this race |
| 02:40 | <&McMartin> | This is going to be a very lopsided race |
| 02:40 | <&McMartin> | LISP is *much* better with arrays than it is with sets, and with Haskell the reverse is true |
| 02:48 | | Karono [Karono@9C034E.4BE65E.E00AF8.FDA077] has quit [Client closed the connection] |
| 02:48 | | Karono [Karono@9C034E.4BE65E.E00AF8.FDA077] has joined #code |
| 02:59 | < Vorntastic> | What race? |
| 03:06 | <&McMartin> | I want to do racing Klotski solvers. |
| 03:06 | <&McMartin> | One of the Things about Common LISP is that it's traditionally *insanely* optimized - as in, a lot of its numerical code tends to give FORTRAN a run for its money and smash everyone else. |
| 03:07 | <&McMartin> | I'm curious how that will roll with a more symbolic computation. |
| 03:07 | <&McMartin> | But the most natural representation of the board is wildly different between the two. |
| 03:08 | <&McMartin> | I mean, here it is in the form that's the easiest to compute with and make variant forms from in Haskell: |
| 03:08 | <&McMartin> | klotski :: Puzzle |
| 03:08 | <&McMartin> | klotski = Set.fromList [((0, 0), (2, 1)), ((2, 0), (2, 1)), ((4, 0), (1, 1)), |
| 03:08 | <&McMartin> | ((0, 1), (2, 2)), ((2, 1), (1, 2)), ((3, 1), (1, 1)), |
| 03:08 | <&McMartin> | And here it is in Common LISP |
| 03:08 | <&McMartin> | ((3, 2), (1, 1)), |
| 03:08 | <&McMartin> | ((0, 3), (2, 1)), ((2, 3), (2, 1)), ((4, 3), (1, 1))] |
| 03:08 | <&McMartin> | (defvar klotski |
| 03:08 | <&McMartin> | (make-array '(5 4) |
| 03:08 | <&McMartin> | :element-type 'symbol |
| 03:08 | <&McMartin> | :initial-contents '((A B B C) |
| 03:08 | <&McMartin> | (A B B C) |
| 03:08 | <&McMartin> | (D E E F) |
| 03:08 | <&McMartin> | (D G H F) |
| 03:08 | <&McMartin> | (I NIL NIL J)))) |
| 03:08 | <&McMartin> | The Haskell version is using, essentially, the same frozen-set implementation you did in Python when you visited the problem |
| 03:09 | <&McMartin> | The LISP solution will be using a matrix of symbols, and is also going to be Imperative As Hell |
| 03:10 | <&McMartin> | But Common LISP is Really Bad at sets. |
| 03:10 | <&McMartin> | (It *does* have hashtables, and I think I can even use arrays as keys as long as they stay fixed, which they will after they are created) |
| 03:11 | <&McMartin> | But the Haskell one is all sets of lists of sets, used as priority queues, etc |
| 03:12 | <&McMartin> | I'm going to have to roll my own Proper Queue in CLISP, though this admittedly took like five minutes since I remember the functional ML queues and those are great as LISP imperative ones. |
| 03:13 | < Vorntastic> | Reminds me I wanted to revisit my python program and make it user friendlier. |
| 03:14 | <&McMartin> | The other difference is that the Haskell solution will be able to collapse states that the CLISP one will not, but I'm not sure how big a deal that will ultimately end up being. |
| 03:14 | <&McMartin> | (if you, say, transposed A and D, the LISP implementation will treat those as separate configurations while the Haskell one will recognize it as a repeated state) |
| 03:15 | < Vorntastic> | For one thing my python program needed to be told in code what the shapes of things were. |
| 03:15 | <&McMartin> | Yup |
| 03:15 | <&McMartin> | That is also a feature of the Haskell version, as you see~ |
| 03:16 | <&McMartin> | Technically also the Lisp one, but I'm cheating there because Code and Data are, you know, S-Expressions, so whatevs |
| 03:16 | <&McMartin> | The LISP one is also great because unlike the Haskell one it does *not* assume rectangular blocks. |
| 03:19 | < Vorntastic> | The lisp one is more like what I want. I also mostly figured out how to do things like collapsing state to run the solver but uncollapsing to display the solution. |
| 03:32 | | Serah [Z@Nightstar-b920a19c.cust.comxnet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 121 seconds] |
| 03:32 | <&McMartin> | Common Lisp is really alarmingly a proto-Python |
| 03:34 | | Karono [Karono@9C034E.4BE65E.E00AF8.FDA077] has quit [Ping timeout: 121 seconds] |
| 03:36 | | Karono [Karono@9C034E.4BE65E.E00AF8.FDA077] has joined #code |
| 03:43 | <&McMartin> | ... what the Hell, CLISP |
| 03:43 | <&McMartin> | Your compiled bytecode is *also made of S-Expressions* |
| 04:03 | | Vornicus [Vorn@Nightstar-221158c7.sd.cox.net] has joined #code |
| 04:03 | | mode/#code [+qo Vornicus Vornicus] by ChanServ |
| 04:03 | | Vornotron [Vorn@Nightstar-221158c7.sd.cox.net] has joined #code |
| 04:04 | | Vornicus [Vorn@Nightstar-221158c7.sd.cox.net] has quit [[NS] Quit: Leaving] |
| 04:04 | | Vornotron is now known as Vornicus |
| 04:04 | | mode/#code [+qo Vornicus Vornicus] by ChanServ |
| 04:05 | | Vorntastic [Vorn@Nightstar-e1dc1a33.sub-70-211-1.myvzw.com] has quit [[NS] Quit: Bye] |
| 04:15 | | Karono [Karono@9C034E.4BE65E.E00AF8.FDA077] has quit [Ping timeout: 121 seconds] |
| 04:43 | | Kindamoody[zZz] is now known as Kindamoody |
| 05:27 | | Derakon is now known as Derakon[AFK] |
| 05:54 | | Kindamoody is now known as Kindamoody|breakfast |
| 06:00 | | Vornicus [Vorn@Nightstar-221158c7.sd.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 121 seconds] |
| 06:00 | | Vornucopia [Vorn@Nightstar-221158c7.sd.cox.net] has joined #code |
| 06:05 | | Vornotron [Vorn@Nightstar-221158c7.sd.cox.net] has joined #code |
| 06:07 | | Vornucopia [Vorn@Nightstar-221158c7.sd.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 121 seconds] |
| 06:12 | | Karono [Karono@9C034E.4BE65E.E00AF8.FDA077] has joined #code |
| 06:13 | | Vornicus [Vorn@Nightstar-221158c7.sd.cox.net] has joined #code |
| 06:14 | | mode/#code [+qo Vornicus Vornicus] by ChanServ |
| 06:14 | | Vornotron [Vorn@Nightstar-221158c7.sd.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 121 seconds] |
| 06:17 | | Karono [Karono@9C034E.4BE65E.E00AF8.FDA077] has quit [Ping timeout: 121 seconds] |
| 06:23 | | Kindamoody|breakfast is now known as Kindamoody |
| 06:23 | | Vornotron [Vorn@Nightstar-221158c7.sd.cox.net] has joined #code |
| 06:24 | | Vornicus [Vorn@Nightstar-221158c7.sd.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 121 seconds] |
| 06:27 | | ErikMesoy|sleep is now known as ErikMesoy |
| 06:56 | | celticminstrel [celticminst@Nightstar-3d915c28.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [[NS] Quit: And lo! The computer falls into a deep sleep, to awake again some other day!] |
| 07:03 | | Karono [Karono@Nightstar-0e4527e4.optusnet.com.au] has joined #code |
| 07:09 | | Vornucopia [Vorn@Nightstar-221158c7.sd.cox.net] has joined #code |
| 07:11 | | Vornotron [Vorn@Nightstar-221158c7.sd.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 121 seconds] |
| 07:14 | | Vornicus [Vorn@Nightstar-221158c7.sd.cox.net] has joined #code |
| 07:14 | | mode/#code [+qo Vornicus Vornicus] by ChanServ |
| 07:16 | | Vornucopia [Vorn@Nightstar-221158c7.sd.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 121 seconds] |
| 07:40 | | Vornicus [Vorn@Nightstar-221158c7.sd.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 121 seconds] |
| 07:41 | | Vornicus [Vorn@Nightstar-221158c7.sd.cox.net] has joined #code |
| 07:41 | | mode/#code [+qo Vornicus Vornicus] by ChanServ |
| 07:47 | | Vornotron [Vorn@Nightstar-221158c7.sd.cox.net] has joined #code |
| 07:49 | | Vornucopia [Vorn@Nightstar-221158c7.sd.cox.net] has joined #code |
| 07:49 | | Vornicus [Vorn@Nightstar-221158c7.sd.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 121 seconds] |
| 07:52 | | Vornotron [Vorn@Nightstar-221158c7.sd.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 121 seconds] |
| 07:52 | | Vornicus [Vorn@Nightstar-221158c7.sd.cox.net] has joined #code |
| 07:52 | | mode/#code [+qo Vornicus Vornicus] by ChanServ |
| 07:54 | | Vornucopia [Vorn@Nightstar-221158c7.sd.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 121 seconds] |
| 08:01 | | Vornotron [Vorn@Nightstar-221158c7.sd.cox.net] has joined #code |
| 08:04 | | Vornicus [Vorn@Nightstar-221158c7.sd.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 121 seconds] |
| 08:05 | | Vornotron [Vorn@Nightstar-221158c7.sd.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 121 seconds] |
| 08:07 | | Kindamoody is now known as Kindamoody|out |
| 08:08 | | himi [fow035@D741F1.243F35.CADC30.81D435] has quit [Operation timed out] |
| 08:09 | | ktemkin[work] is now known as ktemkin[awall] |
| 08:09 | | Vornicus [Vorn@Nightstar-221158c7.sd.cox.net] has joined #code |
| 08:09 | | mode/#code [+qo Vornicus Vornicus] by ChanServ |
| 08:17 | | Vornotron [Vorn@Nightstar-221158c7.sd.cox.net] has joined #code |
| 08:17 | | Vornicus [Vorn@Nightstar-221158c7.sd.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 121 seconds] |
| 08:39 | | Vornicus [Vorn@Nightstar-221158c7.sd.cox.net] has joined #code |
| 08:39 | | mode/#code [+qo Vornicus Vornicus] by ChanServ |
| 08:41 | | Vornotron [Vorn@Nightstar-221158c7.sd.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 121 seconds] |
| 08:43 | | Vornotron [Vorn@Nightstar-221158c7.sd.cox.net] has joined #code |
| 08:45 | | Vornicus [Vorn@Nightstar-221158c7.sd.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 121 seconds] |
| 08:47 | | Turaiel is now known as Turaiel[Offline] |
| 08:51 | | Vornotron [Vorn@Nightstar-221158c7.sd.cox.net] has quit [Connection reset by peer] |
| 08:52 | | Vornotron [Vorn@Nightstar-221158c7.sd.cox.net] has joined #code |
| 09:05 | | iospace [Alexandria@Nightstar-e67f9d08.com] has quit [Operation timed out] |
| 09:05 | | iospace [Alexandria@Nightstar-e67f9d08.com] has joined #code |
| 09:05 | | mode/#code [+o iospace] by ChanServ |
| 09:09 | | Vornotron [Vorn@Nightstar-221158c7.sd.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 121 seconds] |
| 09:11 | | Vornicus [Vorn@Nightstar-221158c7.sd.cox.net] has joined #code |
| 09:11 | | mode/#code [+qo Vornicus Vornicus] by ChanServ |
| 09:24 | | Vornicus [Vorn@Nightstar-221158c7.sd.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 121 seconds] |
| 09:27 | | Vornicus [Vorn@Nightstar-221158c7.sd.cox.net] has joined #code |
| 09:27 | | mode/#code [+qo Vornicus Vornicus] by ChanServ |
| 09:38 | | Vornicus [Vorn@Nightstar-221158c7.sd.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 121 seconds] |
| --- Log opened Wed Jul 24 10:10:04 2013 |
| 10:10 | | TheWatcher [chris@Nightstar-3762b576.co.uk] has joined #code |
| 10:10 | | Irssi: #code: Total of 33 nicks [12 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 21 normal] |
| 10:10 | | mode/#code [+o TheWatcher] by ChanServ |
| 10:10 | | Irssi: Join to #code was synced in 39 secs |
| 10:11 | | AverageJoe [evil1@Nightstar-4b668a07.ph.cox.net] has joined #code |
| 10:15 | < AverageJoe> | Is there a win32 api equivalent for sprintf()? |
| 10:15 | < AverageJoe> | im trying to make this dll as small as possible |
| 10:16 | < AverageJoe> | I dont mind calling into stdio.h, but when I eliminate it, my size goes from 45kb to 11kb |
| 10:23 | <@TheWatcher> | StringCbPrintf? |
| 10:24 | <@TheWatcher> | (in Strsafe.h) |
| 10:27 | < AverageJoe> | Smells like mfc |
| 10:28 | < AverageJoe> | oh its not. i'll test this out |
| 10:48 | | Serah [Z@Nightstar-b920a19c.cust.comxnet.dk] has joined #code |
| 11:10 | | AverageJoe [evil1@Nightstar-4b668a07.ph.cox.net] has quit [[NS] Quit: Leaving] |
| 12:12 | | himi [fow035@Nightstar-5d05bada.internode.on.net] has joined #code |
| 12:12 | | mode/#code [+o himi] by ChanServ |
| 12:23 | | cpux [cpux@Nightstar-98762b0f.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #code |
| 12:23 | | mode/#code [+o cpux] by ChanServ |
| 13:07 | | Karono [Karono@Nightstar-0e4527e4.optusnet.com.au] has quit [[NS] Quit: ] |
| 13:41 | | himi [fow035@Nightstar-5d05bada.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 121 seconds] |
| 13:51 | <@TheWatcher> | <3 emacs' *-rectangle functions |
| 13:51 | <@TheWatcher> | Just saved me so much aggro |
| 13:55 | | himi [fow035@Nightstar-5d05bada.internode.on.net] has joined #code |
| 13:55 | | mode/#code [+o himi] by ChanServ |
| 13:56 | <~Vornicus> | rectangle selection? or draw rectangles around shit? |
| 13:57 | | Karono [Karono@Nightstar-0e4527e4.optusnet.com.au] has joined #code |
| 13:58 | <@TheWatcher> | Rectangle selections |
| 13:58 | <@TheWatcher> | You can mark arbitrary rectangles of text, kill/copy/paste |
| 13:59 | < Serah> | When you say "aggro" what do you mean? |
| 14:00 | <@TheWatcher> | Aggravation, frustration. |
| 14:00 | < Serah> | Oh, okay. That makes sense then. The context I'm used to hearing it in would've been much worse. |
| 14:00 | <@TheWatcher> | Yeah, it didn't fend off some mob trying to kill me ;) |
| 14:01 | <@TheWatcher> | (Although, this is emacs, it probably has a M-x kill-mobs command... |
| 14:01 | <@TheWatcher> | ) |
| 14:02 | < Serah> | :D |
| 14:30 | | Serah [Z@Nightstar-b920a19c.cust.comxnet.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 121 seconds] |
| --- Log closed Wed Jul 24 14:37:09 2013 |
| --- Log opened Wed Jul 24 14:37:24 2013 |
| 14:37 | | TheWatcher [chris@Nightstar-3762b576.co.uk] has joined #code |
| 14:37 | | Irssi: #code: Total of 35 nicks [14 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 21 normal] |
| 14:37 | | mode/#code [+o TheWatcher] by ChanServ |
| 14:38 | | Irssi: Join to #code was synced in 38 secs |
| 14:38 | | himi [fow035@Nightstar-5d05bada.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 121 seconds] |
| 14:39 | < [R]> | urxvt does rectangle selection too :p |
| 14:39 | < [R]> | Woo |
| 14:43 | | Vornicus [Vorn@Nightstar-221158c7.sd.cox.net] has quit [Client closed the connection] |
| --- Log closed Wed Jul 24 14:47:38 2013 |
| --- Log opened Wed Jul 24 14:48:06 2013 |
| 14:48 | | TheWatcher [chris@Nightstar-3762b576.co.uk] has joined #code |
| 14:48 | | Irssi: #code: Total of 33 nicks [13 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 20 normal] |
| 14:48 | | mode/#code [+o TheWatcher] by ChanServ |
| 14:48 | | Irssi: Join to #code was synced in 38 secs |
| 14:52 | | himi [fow035@Nightstar-5d05bada.internode.on.net] has joined #code |
| 14:52 | | mode/#code [+o himi] by ChanServ |
| 15:24 | | celticminstrel [celticminst@Nightstar-3d915c28.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #code |
| 15:24 | | mode/#code [+o celticminstrel] by ChanServ |
| 15:53 | | * ToxicFrog stabs mdadm in the faaaaaaaace |
| 15:55 | <@TheWatcher> | Always a good choice, that. |
| 15:57 | <&ToxicFrog> | This is actually only the second time I've had issues with it worth face-stabbings over |
| 15:58 | <&ToxicFrog> | But I have a RAID1 here and it won't let me decomission it because it thinks it's still busy, despite being unmounted. |
| 16:14 | | Karono [Karono@Nightstar-0e4527e4.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 121 seconds] |
| 16:19 | | * TheWatcher finally manages to crack the problem that has been blocking him All. Fucking. Week. |
| 16:33 | | himi [fow035@Nightstar-5d05bada.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 121 seconds] |
| 16:43 | | himi [fow035@Nightstar-5d05bada.internode.on.net] has joined #code |
| 16:43 | | mode/#code [+o himi] by ChanServ |
| 17:10 | | Turaiel[Offline] is now known as Turaiel |
| 17:17 | | himi [fow035@Nightstar-5d05bada.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 121 seconds] |
| 17:23 | | himi [fow035@Nightstar-5d05bada.internode.on.net] has joined #code |
| 17:23 | | mode/#code [+o himi] by ChanServ |
| 17:40 | | ScootRemote [AndChat3459@Nightstar-5cecf6c5.biz.rr.com] has joined #code |
| 17:41 | < ScootRemote> | Hey, anyone a master of Windows indexing? |
| 17:41 | < [R]> | Yes |
| 17:42 | < ScootRemote> | I'm running win 7 ultimate. Windows search (the process) keeps failing |
| 17:43 | < [R]> | Have you tried rebooting? |
| 17:43 | < ScootRemote> | Which, I know, isn't a lot of data. |
| 17:43 | < ScootRemote> | Yes. I've rebooted. |
| 17:44 | < ScootRemote> | I've tried rebuilding the index |
| 17:45 | < ScootRemote> | Right now I'm trying a system restore |
| 17:46 | < ScootRemote> | Which just failed. |
| 17:46 | < [R]> | *shrugs* yeah, really all I can suggest is google, then if that fails use the guaranteed to fix any software issue that isn't "there's Windows on this box" fix. |
| 17:46 | <@TheWatcher> | Reinstall time~ |
| 17:46 | < ScootRemote> | Yeah... I was worried about that. |
| 17:50 | | himi [fow035@Nightstar-5d05bada.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 121 seconds] |
| 17:51 | <@Alek> | er. |
| 17:51 | <@Alek> | a system restore failed? |
| 17:51 | <@Alek> | sounds like you have more problems than indexing. |
| 17:51 | <@Alek> | either a corrupted install or a going-bad disk. |
| 17:51 | <@Alek> | I think. |
| 17:53 | < ScootRemote> | Sigh. I don't have time to deal with this |
| 17:54 | < [R]> | "- always explicitly call $foo->__destruct() in your code that _uses_ your class |
| 17:54 | < [R]> | - always explicitly follow $foo->__destruct() with unset($foo)." |
| 17:55 | < [R]> | Yes, that sounds like excellent advice. |
| 17:55 | < [R]> | Thanks PHP comment section. |
| 17:55 | < ScootRemote> | Is there anything special I have to do to back up emails if Outlook is connected to Microsoft 365? Is everything stored online? |
| 17:55 | < [R]> | Nab the PST if you're unsure. |
| 17:55 | < [R]> | Or use system backup/restore. Cause you should have it. |
| 17:56 | < [R]> | Err, not "system" |
| 17:56 | < [R]> | Whatever the fuck they're calling that thing now. |
| 17:56 | < ScootRemote> | Email backup |
| 17:56 | < [R]> | Sure... that wasn't what I meant though. |
| 17:59 | < ScootRemote> | Well.... I hope my boss has the install disks somewhere |
| 18:01 | < [R]> | Why do you need WI working anyways? |
| 18:01 | < ScootRemote> | Searching through emails and file folders |
| 18:01 | < [R]> | Actually nm, I use locate enough. |
| 18:04 | | himi [fow035@Nightstar-5d05bada.internode.on.net] has joined #code |
| 18:04 | | mode/#code [+o himi] by ChanServ |
| 18:20 | < ScootRemote> | Okay, got it working. Corrupted sectors on the disk. I guess I need to start shopping for a new hard drive. |
| 18:23 | | himi [fow035@Nightstar-5d05bada.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 121 seconds] |
| 18:25 | | himi [fow035@Nightstar-5d05bada.internode.on.net] has joined #code |
| 18:25 | | mode/#code [+o himi] by ChanServ |
| 18:25 | <@Alek> | you do that. |
| 18:49 | < ScootRemote> | Oh I will |
| 19:00 | | himi [fow035@Nightstar-5d05bada.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 121 seconds] |
| 19:02 | | himi [fow035@Nightstar-5d05bada.internode.on.net] has joined #code |
| 19:02 | | mode/#code [+o himi] by ChanServ |
| 19:03 | <@iospace> | i has haswell :3 |
| 19:30 | | Kindamoody|out is now known as Kindamoody |
| 19:31 | | ScootRemote [AndChat3459@Nightstar-5cecf6c5.biz.rr.com] has quit [[NS] Quit: Bye] |
| 20:08 | | Typh|offline is now known as Typherix |
| 20:27 | | Kindamoody is now known as Kindamoody[zZz] |
| 20:40 | | himi [fow035@Nightstar-5d05bada.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 121 seconds] |
| 20:46 | | himi [fow035@Nightstar-5d05bada.internode.on.net] has joined #code |
| 20:46 | | mode/#code [+o himi] by ChanServ |
| 20:55 | | Typherix is now known as Typh|offline |
| 20:55 | | Typh|offline is now known as Typherix_ |
| 20:55 | | Typherix_ is now known as Typherix |
| 20:55 | | himi [fow035@Nightstar-5d05bada.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 121 seconds] |
| 21:01 | | Typherix is now known as Typh|offline |
| 21:14 | | himi [fow035@Nightstar-5d05bada.internode.on.net] has joined #code |
| 21:14 | | mode/#code [+o himi] by ChanServ |
| 21:43 | | ktemkin[awall] is now known as ktemkin |
| 21:51 | < Azash> | http://www.forbes.com/sites/andygreenberg/2013/07/24/hackers-reveal-nasty-new-ca r-attacks-with-me-behind-the-wheel-video/ |
| 21:53 | < ErikMesoy> | whyyyyyy does the car even have these connections (this reminds me of the joke about antivirus software on voting machines: they shouldn't be getting viruses in the first place) |
| 21:55 | | You're now known as TheWatcher[afk] |
| 21:55 | <&McMartin> | I can't watch video here, but there have been diagnostic computers inside cars for a long time, and the repair guys used systems to talk to them |
| 21:55 | <&McMartin> | If a car is being made in Glorious Future Year 2012, there is really no reason for this to not be a USB port. |
| 21:56 | <&McMartin> | There's no real reason for it to have WAPs though. |
| 22:17 | <@Tarinaky> | Far more interesting is if they develop an attack to /engage/ the breaks. |
| 22:17 | <@Tarinaky> | As it is, right now, it's not really much beyond a very dangerous and unfunny prank. |
| 22:19 | <&McMartin> | Bear in mind that the ability to do that attack is literally a thing that OnStar sells as an anti-theft measure. |
| 22:20 | <&McMartin> | I kind of have a problem with this~ |
| 22:20 | <@Tarinaky> | Well the main applications of engaging a car's breaks remotely, that I can think of are Law Enforcement, Anti-Theft and Theft. |
| 22:21 | <&McMartin> | OK, I'm going to actually object now |
| 22:21 | <@Tamber> | Likewise. |
| 22:21 | <&McMartin> | The system that stops vehicles is the *brakes*. |
| 22:21 | <@Tamber> | It's brakes. |
| 22:21 | <@Tamber> | :p |
| 22:21 | <@Tarinaky> | Whoops. |
| 22:21 | <@Tamber> | The bits that stop you ar the brakes, and if they break, you aren't stopping. :D |
| 22:22 | <@Tamber> | are* |
| 22:22 | <&McMartin> | Once might be a typo, but this place is international enough that I'm willing to grant that we may need vocabulary lessons sometimes~ |
| 22:22 | <@Tarinaky> | The case for the defence presents as evidence the lateness of the time and the defendants current state as physically ill. |
| 22:22 | <@Tamber> | Not, of course, that that really bothers a lot of people; it seems~ (...er, the lack of brakes, that is.) |
| 22:23 | | * Tamber presents JRITS, and the terrifyingly large amount of brake discs worn right through, as evidence. |
| 22:24 | <@Tarinaky> | Well I can't go back in time to correct my typo. That leaves making excuses for myself, being belligerant about it and going into hiding. |
| 22:24 | <@Tarinaky> | I'm too sick to be belligerant. |
| 22:25 | <&McMartin> | JRITS? |
| 22:25 | <&McMartin> | Tarinaky: No worries |
| 22:25 | <@Tamber> | www.reddit.com/r/justrolledintotheshop |
| 22:25 | <&McMartin> | It's just that, well, sometimes people actually don't know, so I had to check~ |
| 22:25 | <&McMartin> | Aha |
| 22:27 | <@Tarinaky> | Anyway. The car thing doesn't worry me too much. I am poor and don't expect to earn enough to buy a new car. |
| 22:28 | <@Tarinaky> | My car thinks computers still use reel-to-reel tape. |
| 22:28 | <&McMartin> | Heh |
| 22:29 | <&McMartin> | Don't tailgate super-new-looking cars, I guess~ |
| 22:30 | <@Tarinaky> | I try to avoid being near anything on the road that could kill me in a crash. Which is basically anything short of a bouncy castle on wheels. |
| 22:30 | <@Tamber> | Or, y'know, don't tailgate at all~ |
| 22:30 | <@Tarinaky> | Harder to stop people tailgating me though. |
| 22:30 | <@Tarinaky> | Driving like the spaz that I am doesn't give them enough of a clue :/ |
| 22:31 | <&McMartin> | If they're tailgating you, then if some asshole decides to cut their fuel feed remotely you're still fine~ |
| 22:31 | <@Tarinaky> | On the other hand, if some asshole decides not to I'm boned :p |
| 22:31 | <@Tarinaky> | *decides to do nothing |
| 22:33 | <@Tamber> | I'd also like to note that, unless there's something *really* weird going on (or, alternatively, I don't know what I'm talking about :)), the only thing the ABS computer can do is effectively cut the brakes. |
| 22:33 | <@Tarinaky> | *watches old episode of Top Gear* Ah. Apparently there are some engine electronics in my car. |
| 22:34 | <@Tamber> | Since it's relying on you holding the brake pedal down to provide the hydraulic pressure to the brakes, then selectively (and very quickly) cutting them off with a valve to provide the anti-lock action. |
| 22:34 | <@Tarinaky> | Well if it has a flappy paddle gear box you can probably engine break. Which is arguably worse. |
| 22:34 | <@Tamber> | brake* |
| 22:34 | <@Tarinaky> | Did I do it again? |
| 22:34 | <@Tarinaky> | D'oh. |
| 22:34 | <@Tamber> | Yes. |
| 22:34 | <@Tamber> | Well, if a malicious entity has control over your ECU, they probably can break your engine~ |
| 22:35 | <&McMartin> | A lot of this stuff is for the "do automatic stuff" things. |
| 22:35 | <&McMartin> | There isn't, apparently, a "yank the steering wheel at top speed" setting. |
| 22:35 | <@Tamber> | Not unless you live in hollywood-land. |
| 22:35 | <&McMartin> | That was "spoof speedometer reading as 0, and then tell it to auto-park" |
| 22:35 | <&McMartin> | That said! |
| 22:35 | <@Tarinaky> | Or if there is it's labled something so innocuous nobody would look for it. |
| 22:35 | <@Tarinaky> | Like Muffin Button. |
| 22:36 | <&McMartin> | IF IT WERE AIRGAPPED FROM EVERYTHING ELSE I'd be totally OK with a systematic mechanical test system that you could do in diagnostic mode. |
| 22:36 | <&McMartin> | I mean, why *shouldn't* cars have a unit test suite, right? |
| 22:36 | <@Tamber> | Because then you wouldn't *have* to take it to their very expensive dealershit techs to have stuff looked at~ |
| 22:36 | <@Tarinaky> | Well, the car manufacturers claim that this is airgapped. |
| 22:36 | <&McMartin> | But it should be mechanically disabled/canceled if the axles are spinning at a certain speed. |
| 22:36 | <@Tarinaky> | The problem is that the hackers claim that arbitrary code execution is a boring problem with too many solutions. |
| 22:37 | <@Tarinaky> | Also: presumably at least one unit test involves running the axles as a certain speed on a suitable big diagnostic thingie. |
| 22:37 | <@Tamber> | Speaking as a 'mechanic' who is also a freetard, I will not trust the ECUs until I can poke at the source for 'em. |
| 22:37 | <@Tamber> | Which ain't happening with anything supplied as OEM. |
| 22:37 | <&ToxicFrog> | Tarinaky: less "a boring problem" and more "people have already demonstrated that you can do this" |
| 22:38 | <@Tarinaky> | Since most of the stuff in a car is designed to be running at the same time as the axles are spinning a unit test that assumes the axles don't spin would be flawed. |
| 22:38 | <&ToxicFrog> | "we want to demonstrate what you can do with it, and doing it over USB is faster" |
| 22:38 | <@Tarinaky> | ToxicFrog: That's the definition of a boring problem. |
| 22:38 | <&McMartin> | And since one of the attack vectors is the CD player, I'm deeply skeptical of any claims of an airgap. |
| 22:38 | <&ToxicFrog> | Well, no, it's not a problem anymore at all |
| 22:38 | <@froztbyte> | I've done some recent work with those various OOB systems for cars and such |
| 22:38 | <@froztbyte> | they're pretty terrible |
| 22:38 | <&ToxicFrog> | It is a solved problem |
| 22:38 | <@Tamber> | froztbyte: Colour me completely and utterly unsurprised~ |
| 22:38 | <@froztbyte> | as far as I can tell, it's security by scarcity |
| 22:39 | <@froztbyte> | "security" |
| 22:39 | <@Tarinaky> | Solved problems are boring ;) |
| 22:39 | <@Tamber> | I am inherently distrustful of anything where the security relies mostly on "Only *we* have the very expensive tools to twiddle with anything" :) |
| 22:39 | <@Tamber> | Because we all know how well *that* works. |
| 22:39 | <@froztbyte> | Tamber: that's all of GSM |
| 22:39 | <@froztbyte> | payment terminals |
| 22:39 | <@Tamber> | It's a long list, yes. |
| 22:39 | <@froztbyte> | ATMs |
| 22:39 | <@froztbyte> | flight orchestration systems |
| 22:39 | <@Tarinaky> | Anyway. The TL;DR of it is that car manufacturers won't do anything until regulators make them. |
| 22:39 | <@Tamber> | It is a very long list. |
| 22:39 | <@froztbyte> | black boxes |
| 22:39 | <@Tarinaky> | Regulators won't do anything until politicians make them. |
| 22:40 | <@Tamber> | I am not a very trusting person. ;) |
| 22:40 | <@froztbyte> | Tamber: and I know many of them personally :< |
| 22:40 | <@Tarinaky> | Politicians won't do anything until someone actually dies. |
| 22:40 | <@froztbyte> | Tamber: this, in some part, factors into my lack of desire for ever crossing an american political line in the current climate ;p |
| 22:40 | <&McMartin> | Someone *wealthy*. |
| 22:40 | <@Tarinaky> | No-one will die until someone comes up with a way to steal your WoW gold via this system. |
| 22:41 | <@froztbyte> | I think it's a fundamentally insane approach to hope that regulators or politicians should fix this |
| 22:41 | <&McMartin> | (Though actually, if this is used as an assassination tool, it will in fact be against the wealthy, given the systems used) |
| 22:41 | <&McMartin> | froztbyte: Well |
| 22:41 | <&McMartin> | Setting up liability structures shapes which things get solved |
| 22:41 | <&McMartin> | In the US, for instance, the costs of fraudulent credit card usage are borne by the lender |
| 22:41 | <@Tarinaky> | I doubt the efficiency of the system for assassination outside of literatire. |
| 22:41 | <@Tarinaky> | *literature. |
| 22:42 | <@Tarinaky> | The US has a much better way of assassinating people already. |
| 22:42 | <@Tamber> | McM: Right up until they do just enough to shove the blame elsewhere. |
| 22:42 | <&McMartin> | But the costs of fraudulent *debit* card usage or check fraud are borne by the account holder |
| 22:42 | <@Tarinaky> | Fire a 10k dollar missile at their head. |
| 22:42 | <@Tamber> | See the "Chip and Pin" bollocks. |
| 22:42 | <&McMartin> | Guess which technology actually has any amount of fraud prevention in it~ |
| 22:42 | <&McMartin> | Yeah, the US only uses PINs for debit cards~ |
| 22:42 | <@froztbyte> | McMartin: 3 things to note: people are good at cheating systems, so they'll find a path of least resistance to cheat it; lack of accurate domain knowledge in the decision echelons will cause an IEEE-style design by committee falure; and "why the fuck is this even a problem?" |
| 22:42 | <@froztbyte> | McMartin: although I know the answer to point 3 |
| 22:43 | <@froztbyte> | bad code rarely carries consequences |
| 22:43 | <&McMartin> | Well |
| 22:43 | <&McMartin> | The industry has made very clear that if it *did*, nobody would ever release software, ever |
| 22:43 | <@Tamber> | Fundamentally and quite badly flawed; but if the system is used, the bank turns around and goes "Whelp. They used the PIN, so you must've given it to them. And now we're going to charge you even more for the privilege of being fucked over!" |
| 22:44 | <@froztbyte> | McMartin: I don't claim to know how to fix these things, though |
| 22:44 | <@Tarinaky> | That's not strictly true is it? Someone must make software for missiles and things. |
| 22:44 | <@Tamber> | froztbyte, fire, and lots of it. |
| 22:44 | < Turaiel> | McMartin, and you can get away without using a PIN too @.@ |
| 22:44 | <&McMartin> | Tarinaky: Yeah. Mission-critical software is all over but it's also largely in-house |
| 22:44 | <@froztbyte> | McMartin: lazy people will be lazy, and there's no (real) way to force anyone's hand (within the society we're unfortunate enough to live in) |
| 22:44 | <&McMartin> | And has release cycles measured in decades |
| 22:44 | <@froztbyte> | Tarinaky: lols |
| 22:44 | <@froztbyte> | yes, what McMartin said |
| 22:45 | <@Tarinaky> | I only objected to the "ever" |
| 22:45 | <@froztbyte> | I knew a guy who worked for denel |
| 22:45 | <@froztbyte> | their software is as pathetically shit as everyone else's |
| 22:45 | <&McMartin> | Tarinaky: Well, in-house developed code for a device is never "released" in the sense I intend here. |
| 22:45 | <@Tarinaky> | Oh. Okay. |
| 22:45 | <@Tarinaky> | It's still shopped. |
| 22:45 | <@Tarinaky> | *shipped |
| 22:45 | <@Tamber> | In some cases, at very high speed. |
| 22:46 | <&McMartin> | Like, you know how there's a standard part of every license that says "this software isn't warranted to be good for anything at all"? |
| 22:46 | <&McMartin> | There are places that isn't valid. |
| 22:46 | <&McMartin> | The Java license used to (maybe still does) explicitly list those as places that you were not permitted to use Java technology~ |
| 22:46 | <@Tarinaky> | I think Apple is currently more famous for listing those. |
| 22:46 | <@Tamber> | Yeah, because being really sure that it works is expensive to do. |
| 22:47 | <@Tarinaky> | "I have only proven that it works, I have not tested it." |
| 22:47 | <&McMartin> | There was a fun case where one of the space module computer systems was found to have a buffer overflow |
| 22:47 | <@froztbyte> | on another note entirely: http://blog.jenniferdewalt.com/post/56319597560/im-learning-to-code-by-building- 180-websites-in-180 |
| 22:47 | <&McMartin> | And it wasn't patched because they'd formally verified the binary and the overflow might therefore have been necessary for success~ |
| 22:48 | <@froztbyte> | Tamber: it is in those environments, mostly because of self-made problems |
| 22:49 | <@froztbyte> | Tamber: it's like...hmm, why are banks terrible? -> all the silly shit they think up for themselves, and refuse to ever change |
| 22:49 | <@froztbyte> | "We can't change that, it's the law", except you /made/ the bloody law reqs |
| 22:49 | <@Tarinaky> | I guess shooting a computer into space counts as a self made prob- Oh, you mean something else. |
| 22:49 | <@froztbyte> | that's also a self-made problem |
| 22:49 | <@froztbyte> | doesn't make it less cool |
| 22:49 | <&McMartin> | Speaking of shooting computers into space, Kerbal Space Program 0.21 is apparently out. |
| 22:49 | <@Tamber> | :) |
| 22:50 | <@Tarinaky> | A space station on the ground is substantially less useful. |
| 22:50 | <@Tarinaky> | Although they do exist... |
| 22:50 | <@Tarinaky> | Kindof. |
| 23:01 | <&ToxicFrog> | It is - if you have the Steam version you probably already have the update - and one of the big improvements is, in fact, to the ASAS computer. |
| 23:01 | <&ToxicFrog> | Which is now (a) built in to the command modules and (b) probably not going to burn all of yourn RCS and then tear the rocket apart |
| 23:05 | | ErikMesoy is now known as ErikMesoy|sleep |
| 23:06 | | Karono [Karono@Nightstar-0e4527e4.optusnet.com.au] has joined #code |
| 23:31 | | You're now known as TheWatcher |
| 23:40 | | Reiv_ [NSwebIRC@Nightstar-95746c1f.kinect.net.nz] has joined #code |
| 23:40 | | Reiv_ [NSwebIRC@Nightstar-95746c1f.kinect.net.nz] has quit [[NS] Quit: Page closed] |
| 23:40 | | Reivles [NSwebIRC@Nightstar-95746c1f.kinect.net.nz] has joined #code |
| 23:41 | | Karono [Karono@Nightstar-0e4527e4.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 121 seconds] |
| 23:46 | | VirusJTG [VirusJTG@Nightstar-09c31e7a.sta.comporium.net] has joined #code |
| --- Log closed Thu Jul 25 00:00:09 2013 |