| --- Log opened Mon Jul 08 00:00:31 2013 |
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| 00:46 | <~Vornicus> | TF: am I correct that the github -- last updated 6 months ago -- is the official repo? |
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| 01:15 | <&ToxicFrog> | Vornicus: yes. These new updates will go up sometime monday. |
| 01:15 | <~Vornicus> | ok |
| 01:16 | <&ToxicFrog> | This will be the 1.1.3 release, and then I work on backreferences for 1.2 |
| 01:22 | | Derakon[AFK] is now known as Derakon |
| 01:26 | <&ToxicFrog> | 1.1.3 is mostly internal code cleanup and a big documentation update, and filling in some gaps in the unit tests |
| 01:26 | <&ToxicFrog> | Although it does add a new feature (pad with specific value) |
| 01:31 | <&ToxicFrog> | 1.2 is going to be backreferences and crossreferences. |
| 01:32 | <@Reiv> | backreferences? |
| 01:32 | <~Vornicus> | heck, crossreferences? |
| 01:39 | <&ToxicFrog> | Backreferences: references within the format string to fields read earlier. E.g., rather than: |
| 01:39 | <&ToxicFrog> | count = vstruct.unpack(fd, "u4", true); toc = vstruct.unpack(fd, "%d * { ...toc entry... }" % count) |
| 01:39 | <&ToxicFrog> | You go: |
| 01:40 | <&ToxicFrog> | toc = vstruct.unpack(fd, "count:u4 $count * { ... }") |
| 01:43 | <&McMartin> | Oh hey, speaking of github |
| 01:43 | <&McMartin> | I should push my C++ purge |
| 01:43 | <~Vornicus> | Does this mean I need to push my C++ binge? |
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| 01:45 | <@Reiv> | ToxicFrog: Explain that sans code, if you don't mind. |
| 01:46 | <@Reiv> | I'm not entirely sure what that was meant to be doin'. |
| 01:49 | <&ToxicFrog> | Reiv: ok, you know what vstruct is already, right? |
| 01:50 | <&ToxicFrog> | So, normally field sizes and repetition counts are hard-coded in the format string. |
| 01:51 | <&ToxicFrog> | If you need to vary the size of something at runtime, you splice that into the format string with %d or string concatenation. |
| 01:51 | <@Reiv> | nyet |
| 01:51 | <&ToxicFrog> | If you need to determine it based on the contents of the thing you're unpacking, well, you do one unpack call to get the size, splice that into a format string, then do another call. |
| 01:51 | <@Reiv> | It seems my C++ has dissolved into ectoplasm. Which is sad, because I once wrote a game of chess in the thing. |
| 01:52 | <@Reiv> | right |
| 01:52 | <&ToxicFrog> | With a backreference, you can say "read a value; now use that value as the basis for something later in the format" in a single call to unpack. |
| 01:52 | <&ToxicFrog> | Also, this is Lua, not C++. |
| 01:52 | <@Reiv> | OK |
| 01:52 | <&ToxicFrog> | As for what it does - are you familiar with python's "struct" lib? |
| 01:52 | <@Reiv> | So it's a speed optimisation thing? |
| 01:53 | <@Reiv> | ... Probably. |
| 01:53 | <&ToxicFrog> | A programmer time optimization thing. |
| 01:53 | <&ToxicFrog> | It makes the intent of the format string clearer and means you only need one format string for something that is logically a single struct. |
| 01:53 | <&ToxicFrog> | The high-level goal for this feature is "make variable-length stuff painless" |
| 01:54 | <@Reiv> | Right. |
| 01:54 | | * McMartin completes The Murderings, though the language stats don't agree. |
| 01:54 | <&McMartin> | https://github.com/michaelcmartin/monocle |
| 01:56 | <&ToxicFrog> | It will probably also be slightly faster due to e.g. only needing to create one parser context. |
| 01:56 | <&ToxicFrog> | ...once the readahead code is smart enough to take this stuff into account. |
| 01:56 | <&ToxicFrog> | Until then it will actually be slower. |
| 01:56 | <@Reiv> | McMartin: ... I recall you writing a moderately lengthly piece on why you shouldn't write your own game language unless you had really good reasons not to use one that is pre-existent and Good Enough. |
| 01:56 | <@Reiv> | I see you are now in fact writing a game engine. |
| 01:57 | <@Reiv> | What, then, are your Really Good Reasons?~ |
| 01:57 | <@Namegduf> | XD |
| 02:03 | <&ToxicFrog> | Reiv: oh yeah, as for what it is - it's a library for reading and writing binary data formats. |
| 02:03 | <&ToxicFrog> | Specifically, it's a language that lets you describe a mapping between a binary format and lua data structures. |
| 02:04 | <&ToxicFrog> | It was written because existing libraries for this purpose don't support formats like 24-bit ints, or fixed point values, or bitpacks. |
| 02:11 | <@Reiv> | I see. |
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| 03:05 | <~Vornicus> | TF: I understood what a backreference is, but what's a crossreference? |
| 03:20 | <&ToxicFrog> | Vornicus: sorrry, forgot to explain that |
| 03:20 | <&ToxicFrog> | A reference in a format string to another previously defined format string |
| 03:21 | <&ToxicFrog> | Useful when the same struct type appears in several places as a field in other structs |
| 03:30 | <~Vornicus> | aha |
| 03:43 | | Kindamoody[zZz] is now known as Kindamoody |
| 04:23 | <@Alek> | "Did you hear, they found a new Mayan calendar in Mexico?" "Finally they renewed their license." |
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| 04:58 | <&ToxicFrog> | Yay, tile info reporting is working |
| 04:58 | <&ToxicFrog> | And reveals that I have no goddamn idea why walls aren't always appearing |
| 05:10 | < Syka> | ToxicFrog: this sounds like you're making an XCOM mod |
| 05:12 | <&ToxicFrog> | No, I'm working on http://funkyhorror.ancilla.ca/toxicfrog/projects/shockmap2/maps/07.html |
| 05:12 | < Syka> | ahh |
| 05:12 | < Syka> | it was just that xcom sounds like something that "oh god the walls arent there" would be a problem |
| 05:13 | < Syka> | ToxicFrog: what is this for? seems doomesque |
| 05:13 | <&ToxicFrog> | Yeah, in this case, well |
| 05:13 | <&ToxicFrog> | Consider this: http://funkyhorror.ancilla.ca/toxicfrog/projects/shockmap2/maps/03.html |
| 05:13 | <&ToxicFrog> | There is meant to be a room in the middle of that empty space! |
| 05:14 | < Syka> | to find the room, you must be the room |
| 05:14 | < Syka> | become one with the room |
| 05:16 | <&ToxicFrog> | This is because a lot of walls are implied by having adjacent tiles with floor/ceiling heights that don't match up, and a lot of the floor/ceiling heights are not as recorded in the map file but must be calculated from that + the slope parameters. |
| 05:16 | <&ToxicFrog> | And it's System Shock. |
| 05:16 | <@Alek> | 'Client ordered a couple IBM Storwize v7000 units, each with a hundred 900GB drives, 20 1TB drives, and 10 400GB SSDs. We were asked what we thought of it. And I could think of nothing more safe to say than "I fapped, thanks."' |
| 05:18 | <&ToxicFrog> | SUDDEN BLINDING INSIGHT |
| 05:19 | | Derakon is now known as Derakon[AFK] |
| 05:20 | <&ToxicFrog> | ...there are now more walls. |
| 05:20 | <&ToxicFrog> | But not all the walls. |
| 05:20 | <&ToxicFrog> | Wtf. |
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| 05:23 | | * iospace gives ToxicFrog ALL THE WALLS |
| 05:23 | < Syka> | fffff |
| 05:23 | < Syka> | i have power back in all my switches |
| 05:23 | < Syka> | move server's UPS to it |
| 05:24 | <&ToxicFrog> | ADDITIONAL BLINDING INSIGHT |
| 05:24 | < Syka> | my microserver is set up to auto shutdown upon power loss |
| 05:24 | < Syka> | :C |
| 05:26 | | * Alek patpats the Syka. |
| 05:26 | <&ToxicFrog> | ...all the walls in deck 3 now render. |
| 05:26 | <&ToxicFrog> | Deck R, however, still thinks that the reactor core is open plan. |
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| 05:30 | <@Alek> | isn't it? XD |
| 05:31 | | * Alek flashbacks to all the open-plan reactors. |
| 05:31 | <@Alek> | Like Cloud City. |
| 05:34 | <&ToxicFrog> | Hmm. |
| 05:35 | <@Alek> | or the Cryostasis ship, North Wind. |
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| 05:36 | <&ToxicFrog> | Ok, so tile shape 6, slope control 3 tiles are not correctly calculating the tile edges. |
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| 05:45 | <&ToxicFrog> | Progress! All the walls are rendering now, but in the wrong places. |
| 05:48 | <~Vornicus> | pff |
| 05:55 | | * Vornicus pokes at his MOR optimizer some more |
| 05:59 | <~Vornicus> | I was trying to... ah, yes. I needed to figure out how to template my optimize routine so it works for the things I'm passing into it |
| 06:01 | <@Alek> | "Who could have imagined that the innocent phrase 'user:pass' would change so drastically in a client that supported smilies?" |
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| 07:24 | <&McMartin> | 17:54 <@Reiv> McMartin: ... I recall you writing a moderately lengthly piece on why you shouldn't write your own game language unless you had really good reasons not to use one that is pre-existent and Good Enough. |
| 07:24 | <&McMartin> | 17:54 <@Reiv> I see you are now in fact writing a game engine. |
| 07:24 | <&McMartin> | 17:54 <@Reiv> What, then, are your Really Good Reasons?~ |
| 07:24 | <&McMartin> | Those are, in fact, two different things. |
| 07:26 | <&McMartin> | As for "why your own engine" - I like SDL, for the most part. But I don't like *using* SDL. |
| 07:27 | <&McMartin> | SDL_mixer in particular is super-finicky and obnoxious |
| 07:29 | <&McMartin> | Game Maker's build products are kind of obnoxious to distribute. It's fine as far as it goes, but it invents a language used nowhere else and it's really annoying to use. |
| 07:29 | <&McMartin> | I have the relevant experience that means Game Maker is optional for me, but I've never really done the work. |
| 07:30 | <&McMartin> | So here I am, Doing The Work, and also doing so in a way that means that I can bind wacky languages to it, and playing with wacky languages is also a thing I like to do. |
| 07:33 | <&McMartin> | So depending on what you're asking... |
| 07:34 | <&McMartin> | (1) Monocle isn't creating a new language; it's the opposite. It's trying to make every language that exists be usable as a game scripting/development language. |
| 07:34 | <&McMartin> | (2) If I even spoke out against writing your own engine, it would have needed to be qualified with "... unless writing an engine was the goal", because game design and game engine writing are two totally different things. |
| 07:41 | <&McMartin> | As for "why are you considering abandoning GM:S for Dapper Delver", most of that is that the end results aren't quite as compatible as I'd like, and some of the platforms I'd like to support would require paying a hundred dollars or so. Furthermore, its content creation and organization tools are starting to become inconvenient. Monocle actually started as a set of game maker interoperation tools. |
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| 07:42 | | * Vornicus yays for McM |
| 07:44 | <&McMartin> | I suspect the thing you're remembering is http://mcmartin.livejournal.com/125009.html - this also includes the reasons to not use it~ |
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| 14:19 | <&ToxicFrog> | I figured out what I did wrong on the drive to work today, and it is so, so, so stupid and obvious that it's a good sign I should have gone to bed two hours earlier than I did. |
| 14:21 | <@iospace> | heh |
| 14:21 | | * iospace is currently without a test board! |
| 14:45 | | * ToxicFrog left his decompressed ARCHIVE.DAT on his laptop :( |
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| 15:18 | <@iospace> | ToxicFrog: yay us! |
| 15:23 | | * ToxicFrog sends the OSPO 26 patches to review :D |
| 15:27 | <&ToxicFrog> | (the fruits of that labour over the weekend, BTW: http://funkyhorror.ancilla.ca/toxicfrog/ss1/maps/00.html ) |
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| 20:56 | <&ToxicFrog> | Woot! I now have permission to ignore the review process when pushing updates to vstruct. |
| 20:57 | < Azash_> | \o/ |
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| 21:18 | < jeroud> | What's the review process? |
| 21:33 | <&ToxicFrog> | jeroud: send diffs to the OSPO, wait for them to approve (usually takes <1h). |
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| 22:10 | | * Derakon still maintains an iron-fisted grip over Pyrel's repository. |
| 22:10 | <&Derakon> | Mostly because nobody can follow the %$*&ing style guide. |
| 22:11 | | * ToxicFrog cuts file size by 60% by emitting JSON and assembling the HTML at runtime. |
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| --- Log closed Tue Jul 09 00:00:38 2013 |