| --- Log opened Wed Jun 26 00:00:01 2013 |
| --- Day changed Wed Jun 26 2013 |
| 00:00 | < RichyB> | oh w00t, Microsoft have confirmed that they're adding support for WebGL to IE11. |
| 00:00 | < RichyB> | I'll be able to use it in actual products any decade now... probably around 2030 assuming IE9 gets the same adoption curve that IE6 took. |
| 00:03 | | Turaiel[Offline] is now known as Turaiel |
| 00:03 | <@Namegduf> | It'll probably be somewhat better, but still >3 years. |
| 00:04 | <@Namegduf> | MS has been pushing for upgrading more regularly post IE6. |
| 00:06 | < RichyB> | Completely irrelevant unless they're going to try porting IE11 back down to Windows Vista and 7, which they won't. |
| 00:06 | | You're now known as TheWatcher[T-2] |
| 00:06 | < RichyB> | MS ties releases of IE to releases of Windows; releases of Windows stay around forever. |
| 00:06 | <@Namegduf> | Vista's not going to stick around anywhere near as long as XP. |
| 00:06 | < RichyB> | IE6 stayed around forever because it was tied to Windows XP, which is the one that never died. |
| 00:07 | <@Namegduf> | XP had a lot of post-IE6 IE versions. |
| 00:07 | < RichyB> | I have no reason to believe that W7 is going to die more quickly than XP. |
| 00:07 | <@Namegduf> | I think it goes up to 9. |
| 00:07 | < RichyB> | No, 8. |
| 00:07 | < RichyB> | 6 is what shipped with IE, though. |
| 00:07 | < RichyB> | er |
| 00:07 | < RichyB> | 6 is what shipped with XP. |
| 00:08 | | You're now known as TheWatcher[zZzZ] |
| 00:08 | < RichyB> | That mattered because corporate (corpulent) IT liked to standardise on the version of IE that came with that version of Windows and then went and bought loads of ActiveX-ridden software that would only work with IE6. |
| 00:09 | <@Alek> | the post-IE6 versions were only available on XP being backported after a long time on Vista/7, iirc. |
| 00:09 | <@Alek> | but I'm not positive. |
| 00:09 | <@Namegduf> | I don't think if it was a late backport, it was that long. |
| 00:09 | <&McMartin> | IIRC, IE started being basically usable around 9 |
| 00:09 | <@Namegduf> | I don't remember the details. |
| 00:10 | <@Namegduf> | RichyB: MS encouraged that and provided ActiveX, and promoted it. They're not presently doing any equivalent for IE7 or IE9. |
| 00:10 | < RichyB> | Concretely: the company I work for sells web applications to government-y people, particularly in the UK. |
| 00:11 | < RichyB> | IE7 is not the latest version of IE available for any release of Windows. |
| 00:11 | <@Namegduf> | No, but it's the one that shipped with Vista. |
| 00:11 | < RichyB> | Last time we ran through httpd.conf with a log parser, it was the one installed on a plurality (thankfully not a majority) of our customers' machines |
| 00:11 | <@Namegduf> | 9 was the one which shipped with 7, IIRC. I could be wrong there. They're not doing any equivalent for 8 if I am. |
| 00:12 | <@Namegduf> | IE 9, Windows 7, IE 8, respectively |
| 00:12 | < RichyB> | From where I am sitting, it is an empirically verified fact that corpulent IT departments love to standardise for as long as they possibly can on the shittiest version of IE that they can get to run on their computers. |
| 00:12 | < RichyB> | *corporate, but oh I repeat myself. |
| 00:12 | <@Namegduf> | I suspect they will EOL Windows 7 faster than Windows XP, too |
| 00:13 | <@Namegduf> | Yeah, 2020 for Windows 7 |
| 00:13 | <@Namegduf> | 2023 for Windows 8 |
| 00:13 | <@Namegduf> | Looking at extended, not mainstream, support |
| 00:13 | <@Namegduf> | Vista is 2017. |
| 00:13 | < RichyB> | Plans ? reality. |
| 00:13 | < RichyB> | Especially when Microsoft makes them. |
| 00:14 | <@Namegduf> | Doesn't change that the evidence is clearly that IE 7-10 will not hang around for as long as IE 6, due to faster OS cycles, less promotion of version-specific technologies, and such. |
| 00:14 | <@Namegduf> | It doesn't have to be certain to be pretty probable. |
| 00:14 | < RichyB> | Windows XP's planned EOL was originally supposed to be something like 2008-ish. |
| 00:15 | <@Namegduf> | Mainstream or extended? |
| 00:15 | <@Namegduf> | Because its mainstream end got pushed back, but only by a year. |
| 00:15 | <@Namegduf> | To 2009. |
| 00:15 | < RichyB> | Hrmn. My memory claimed that they'd pushed it back more than that. |
| 00:16 | <@Namegduf> | I'm looking at http://windows.microsoft.com/en-GB/windows/products/lifecycle |
| 00:17 | < ktemkin> | Tarinaky: With regards to your claim that people are only motivated by tests: I've had classes where I've done away with tests altogether. |
| 00:17 | <@Namegduf> | I don't know when the planned EOL was, but I seem to recall XP's extended support wasn't slated to end until 201x by the first time I heard people talking about its support ending. |
| 00:17 | <@Namegduf> | They've definitely releasing at a faster rate than they were before. |
| 00:17 | < ktemkin> | More than half of the students still did the /optional assignments/ in those classes, though they knew there was no direct effect on their grades. |
| 00:18 | <&McMartin> | When I was a CS student you could really tell the difference between the people there because CS jobs were thought to pay well (it was the 90s) and the ones who were there because it was a calling |
| 00:18 | < RichyB> | McMartin: the ones who couldn't not be there. :) |
| 00:20 | < ktemkin> | When I was a CS student (it was the early 2000s) most people were there because they liked to play games and fix computers, and thought CS was somehow the natural place for them. |
| 00:21 | < RichyB> | I got into CS as a result of having spent a lot of time wondering "how the fuck do you achieve that?" at videogames as a child. |
| 00:21 | < ktemkin> | The University taught to the bottom-middle, so more of them survived than should have. I wouldn't recommend that CS program to anyone (I wound up graduating with a degree in computer engineering instead, which was much more serious). |
| 00:22 | < ktemkin> | I got into CS as the computer I had when I was youngish only ran DOS, and the only real application I could play around with was QBASIC. |
| 00:23 | < ktemkin> | I loved modifying the provided example programs and reveling in what I could make it do. |
| 00:25 | < ktemkin> | At our particular school, most of the engineering departments vie for enrollment; trying to convince students they'll get the best pay for the least work, have the most fun, and make the most difference. |
| 00:26 | < ktemkin> | Our department is the only one that doesn't actively promote itself: we just show students what we do and tell them to decide where they want to be. |
| 00:26 | | * McMartin nods |
| 00:26 | < ktemkin> | I think that helps a lot-- we tend to only get the students who actively want to become Electrical or Computer engineers. |
| 00:27 | <&McMartin> | Always a plus |
| 00:27 | <&McMartin> | My alma mater considered itself (with some justification) to be an elite CS school, so its lack of active recruiting of other students could also just be read as being smugly superior-feeling~ |
| 00:27 | <&McMartin> | But more directly, they already had more applicants than they really were prepared to deal with, so |
| 00:28 | <&McMartin> | (Which school do you teach at, if you don't mind me asking?) |
| 00:28 | < ktemkin> | State University of New York, Binghamton ("Binghamton University") |
| 00:28 | | * McMartin nods |
| 00:28 | <&McMartin> | (My alma mater was UC Berkeley) |
| 00:29 | <&McMartin> | There were some SUNY guys here long ago and I can't actually remember which one it was |
| 00:29 | <@Alek> | <x> penetration - typically a variable, type double. |
| 00:30 | <&ToxicFrog> | ? |
| 00:31 | < ktemkin> | I'm working here for now becuase I can actually effect changes to the program I work with; though I suppose it would be better for my career if I tried to teach at a more prestigious institution. |
| 00:31 | | * McMartin shrug |
| 00:31 | <&McMartin> | I got disillusioned with research pretty quickly, tbh~ |
| 00:31 | < ktemkin> | Prestigious institutions tend to have hundreds of years of distinguished history that says they should keep on doing what they're doing. |
| 00:31 | <&McMartin> | That's both good and bad, of course |
| 00:31 | <&McMartin> | And CS is a super-young discipline |
| 00:33 | < ktemkin> | I find that a lot of the standard ways classes are taught (lectures, for example) really don't work well. |
| 00:33 | <&McMartin> | Yeah |
| 00:33 | < ktemkin> | At best, it's stagnant; and at worse, it's inoptimal. |
| 00:33 | <&McMartin> | And, I mean, SUNY is not exactly out in the peripheries, either |
| 00:34 | <&McMartin> | I know I ran across a lot of papers from there (well, mostly SUNY Stony Brook) when I was actually trying to keep up with a subfield |
| 00:35 | < ktemkin> | Stony Brook is one of our worst schools, from what I've seen. |
| 00:35 | < ktemkin> | Though they have some really good individual programs (graduate physics; possibly graduate CS). |
| 00:35 | <&McMartin> | They had a couple guys good at program analysis a decade or so ago, at least~ |
| 00:36 | < ktemkin> | The thing is that they're very much designed to be a moneymaking institution. |
| 00:36 | | * McMartin nods |
| 00:36 | <&McMartin> | Is there a Masters vs. PhD split there like you occasionally see out here? |
| 00:38 | < ktemkin> | I'm not sure, honestly. I don't keep up with their graduate programs all that keenly. |
| 00:39 | < ktemkin> | Most of their graduate students are international, and they have a horrible habit of accepting anyone who makes them seem like their student body is compriesd of only New Yorkers. |
| 00:40 | <&McMartin> | I had to break out my old Algorithms text book last weekend. Time has not been kind to me -_- |
| 00:40 | <&McMartin> | Er, is or is not comprised of only New Yorkers? |
| 00:40 | < ktemkin> | *isn't only comprised |
| 00:41 | < ktemkin> | They'll accept anyone, no matter their qualifications, if they're from a exotic-sounding country. |
| 00:41 | <&McMartin> | Ah |
| 00:42 | < ktemkin> | They then pour all the tution money they have into hiring the kind of people who have a lot of funding money, and lay off staff who are merely really good teachers. |
| 00:43 | < ktemkin> | That's, unfortunately, very common. |
| 00:44 | | * McMartin nods |
| 00:46 | < ktemkin> | I keep putting off my research to work on educational software and practices; but I'm going to have to stop myself and focus on research for a while if I'm going to have a chance at tenure, long-term. |
| 00:47 | < ktemkin> | I've seen so many people who really, really care about education be dismissed due to insufficient funding, or publication count. |
| 00:50 | < ktemkin> | Some of them were even good educators. |
| 00:52 | <&McMartin> | Things went downhill in California really fast during the '00s |
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| 01:03 | < ktemkin> | Sadly, now I get students who come to me and say they love designing things, but they don't want to program because they "don't want to be stuck behind a desk". |
| 01:04 | < ktemkin> | I think there's been a general decliine the the quality of CS educators, and it's frightning a lot of students away from programming. |
| 01:05 | < ktemkin> | *decline |
| 01:05 | <@froztbyte> | that's an easy one to cheat |
| 01:05 | <@froztbyte> | "if you don't write some code, how will you ever know your design works?" |
| 01:06 | | Turaiel is now known as Turaiel[Offline] |
| 01:06 | | Turaiel[Offline] is now known as Turaiel |
| 01:07 | | Turaiel is now known as Turaiel[Offline] |
| 01:07 | < ktemkin> | I tell a lot of them that programming is the kind of skill that helps them to /not/ wind up stuck behind a desk. |
| 01:07 | | Turaiel[Offline] is now known as Turaiel |
| 01:07 | < ktemkin> | If you can automate your tasks (like testing), you won'd have to sit there doing the manual work yourself. |
| 01:07 | <@froztbyte> | that, and read a lot of code |
| 01:07 | <@froztbyte> | so that you can boil the right form down in your brain |
| 01:08 | <@froztbyte> | and just tap it out "reasonably quickly" |
| 01:08 | <&McMartin> | I'm getting a whiff there of "everyone wants to direct, nobody wants to be the gaffer", though, too >_> |
| 01:08 | <@froztbyte> | yeah, there's always that |
| 01:08 | <@froztbyte> | but at that young point in their lifes, just abuse psychology to cheat them into doing work |
| 01:08 | <@froztbyte> | as soon as the reward patterns kick in, your work is done ;D |
| 01:09 | < ktemkin> | "just abuse psychology to cheat them into doing work" <-- That's what education /is/. |
| 01:09 | <&McMartin> | The letters-of-fire effect is really something to see the first time it kicks in on someone |
| 01:10 | < ktemkin> | The worst thing is that our CS department really hates having to teach engineers. |
| 01:10 | <@froztbyte> | ktemkin: and this, I think, is likely why I'm so strongly an autodidact |
| 01:10 | <@froztbyte> | McMartin: "I can see the code. I know how it works" with a matrix backdrop and all |
| 01:10 | <@froztbyte> | ?* |
| 01:11 | < ktemkin> | And yet, the accredidation board requires our students to take programming classes from CS. |
| 01:11 | <@froztbyte> | similar thing this side of the world |
| 01:11 | <@froztbyte> | it never quite made sense to me |
| 01:11 | < ktemkin> | Their first programming class is an intro to C that covers pointers in /the last week/. |
| 01:11 | <@froztbyte> | electric engineers learning C, for supposed PLC systems which they'll almost barely ever code for |
| 01:11 | <@froztbyte> | ktemkin: heh |
| 01:11 | <@froztbyte> | sounds about right |
| 01:12 | <@froztbyte> | it's like how the compsci courses here force you into Business Management for a while too |
| 01:12 | < ktemkin> | Their second programming class is a data structures class where they are expected to do things like /write their own version of malloc for an embedded system using a freelist/. |
| 01:13 | <@froztbyte> | wat |
| 01:13 | <@froztbyte> | waaaaaaaaaaat |
| 01:13 | <@froztbyte> | sigh |
| 01:13 | <@froztbyte> | I should go to bed now |
| 01:13 | < ktemkin> | It's taught by an old ex-IBM lecturer who I'm pretty sure doesn't know how to program. |
| 01:13 | <@froztbyte> | before I read more about that and get angry |
| 01:14 | < ktemkin> | One of his /recommended practices/ is to create a set of four global integers for use as temporary variables in each of his functions, so "the program doens't have to waste time allocating them". |
| 01:14 | <@Tamber> | ...ex-COBOL programmer? |
| 01:15 | <@froztbyte> | ktemkin: I...what |
| 01:15 | <@froztbyte> | _*/what\*_ |
| 01:15 | < ktemkin> | I /know/! |
| 01:15 | <@froztbyte> | god |
| 01:15 | <@froztbyte> | it's like a friend of mine in the states |
| 01:15 | < ktemkin> | I can't even see how that would /save/ time unless you had no other locals, as I'm pretty sure all the compiler does is add an immediate to the stack. |
| 01:16 | <@froztbyte> | he was doing some course, I don't recall exactly what, but it had a compsci section covering networking |
| 01:16 | <@froztbyte> | prof: *rattles off some factoids about the various processes, arp, etc* "and any interface can only ever have one IP" |
| 01:16 | <@froztbyte> | friend: "uh. no. that's wrong." |
| 01:17 | <@froztbyte> | prof proceeds to get indignant about 1) being interrupted, 2) being called wrong |
| 01:17 | <@froztbyte> | (both of these in front of the whole class, of course) |
| 01:17 | < ktemkin> | (I should have written: *add an immediate to the stack pointer) |
| 01:17 | <@froztbyte> | friend walks to the front, connects his machine up, let's it dhcp, then adds another IP he knows works on the network (from another subnet) |
| 01:17 | <@froztbyte> | shows both pinging |
| 01:18 | <&McMartin> | Ha ha |
| 01:18 | <@froztbyte> | then just plugs out and walks away |
| 01:18 | <&McMartin> | I threw together a free-list system a couple weeks ago to get it out of my head |
| 01:18 | < ktemkin> | That's the kind of thing that made me never attend class during my undergrad. |
| 01:18 | <@froztbyte> | now, turns out, we later found the book the prof was following |
| 01:18 | <@froztbyte> | ktemkin: but this is the problem |
| 01:18 | <@froztbyte> | if you were some newb who knew nothing, and you got told that |
| 01:18 | <@froztbyte> | congrats |
| 01:18 | <@froztbyte> | you now have 1982 knowledge in your head |
| 01:19 | <@froztbyte> | and you take it as truth because the gauntlet you ran made you feel accomplished about knowing it |
| 01:19 | | * McMartin rocks out the SID chiptunes >_> |
| 01:19 | <&ToxicFrog> | McMartin: "letters of fire effect"? |
| 01:20 | < ktemkin> | The only way I've seen thus far to fix the problem has been to start teaching myself. |
| 01:20 | <&McMartin> | ToxicFrog: When the answer to the coding problem is standing before you in letters of fire, fully-formed, and your task as a conscious entity is just to Get It Down On Paper/Into A File. |
| 01:20 | <@froztbyte> | ktemkin: I tutor 1-on-1 where I get a chance |
| 01:20 | <&ToxicFrog> | Aah. |
| 01:20 | < ktemkin> | And to mentor other teachers, when I can. |
| 01:20 | <@froztbyte> | (usually over IRC when a bright mind presents itself) |
| 01:20 | <&McMartin> | ktemkin: Fighting the good fight |
| 01:20 | <@froztbyte> | but yeah, it's problematic |
| 01:20 | <@froztbyte> | and I mean hell, this isn't even my dayjob |
| 01:21 | < ktemkin> | I've been working on creating open-courseware style materials as well. |
| 01:21 | <@froztbyte> | I could do /so much/ good at a university |
| 01:21 | <&ToxicFrog> | Re "they love designing things, but they don't want to program"...all of the good designers I've known were good designers because they had a great deal of experience programming. |
| 01:21 | <@froztbyte> | but it'd be impossible for me to do that |
| 01:21 | <@froztbyte> | since they wouldn't let me ;p |
| 01:21 | <@froztbyte> | McMartin: re paper, I've written code on a napkin before |
| 01:21 | < ktemkin> | ToxicFrog: These are engineers; they design things at different levels of abstraction (like using algorithmic state machines at the RTL) |
| 01:21 | <@froztbyte> | using coffee |
| 01:22 | <@froztbyte> | and the back of the teaspoon as the pen |
| 01:22 | <@froztbyte> | (because it was all I had on hand) |
| 01:22 | <@froztbyte> | (it was a solution to an algorithm I'd been poking at for a few days) |
| 01:22 | < ktemkin> | A lot of them are secretly doing something directly akin to programming. |
| 01:23 | < ktemkin> | But there's this popular notion that programming is difficult black magic, so once it's called programming, it's a horror. |
| 01:23 | <@froztbyte> | haha |
| 01:23 | <@froztbyte> | matlab work and such? |
| 01:24 | < ktemkin> | Uggh, don't even /talk/ to me about matlab. |
| 01:24 | <@froztbyte> | hahaha |
| 01:25 | <@froztbyte> | well, I'll pre-emptively go crash then :> |
| 01:25 | < ktemkin> | A lot of the actual hardware design is really very close to programming, though. |
| 01:25 | < ktemkin> | That's what I meant. |
| 01:25 | <@froztbyte> | yar, fair enough |
| 01:25 | <@froztbyte> | there's very few people who get that, though |
| 01:25 | < ktemkin> | When you write assembly code, you're just sequencing register transfers. |
| 01:26 | <@froztbyte> | in both cases, you're telling a system of parts how to solve a problem |
| 01:26 | <@froztbyte> | in programming, those parts just happen to be "idealogical", but nonetheless it's the same premise |
| 01:26 | <@froztbyte> | (hell, you could compare complex machine engineering to the same thing) |
| 01:27 | < ktemkin> | Really, any time you're trying to exploit a system of rigid rules to produce a desired outcome, you're doing something very much akin to programming. |
| 01:30 | < ktemkin> | One of the problems I see is that a lot of the CS educators don't actually understand how the hardware works. |
| 01:30 | < ktemkin> | I'm sure C can be made to seem pretty damned mysterious if you're trying to explain it indepdently of the hardware. |
| 01:34 | <@Tarinaky> | So. It's been two, three, weeks and still no hint of any kind of civil proceedings in Europe against companies who cooperated with PRISM. |
| 01:35 | <@Tarinaky> | ktemkin: That's why I corrected myself with s/test/credits/ |
| 01:35 | <@Tarinaky> | It doesn't matter how the course is assessed. |
| 01:35 | <@Tarinaky> | Or GCHQ. |
| 01:37 | < ktemkin> | And when I give optional assignments /unrelated to the material they're being assessed in/, and see a majority of the students choose to engage in them? |
| 01:37 | < ktemkin> | And when they're given choose-your-own final projects and they deliberately pick challenging design tasks? |
| 01:38 | < ktemkin> | The latter definitely seems like they're more driven by pride than by the assessment iself. |
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| 01:38 | <@Tarinaky> | I dispite the strict accuracy of that assertion. As to challenging tasks: would they lose marks or struggle to demonstrate competence if they chose an easy task? |
| 01:38 | < ktemkin> | No; and I provide a list of examples tasks, some of which are much easier than the ones they suggest. |
| 01:39 | <@Tarinaky> | Well evidently your course is a lot better than the ones I've been on. |
| 01:40 | < ktemkin> | It might be, or I may have an unusually unrepresentative sampling set. I'm only basing this off a sample of a few hundred students over a few years. |
| 01:40 | <@Tarinaky> | But, you know... I do assignments that don't directly contribute to my marks... because they indirectly help with the things that are assessed >.> |
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| 01:41 | <@Tarinaky> | That's the main reason they're even set as homework. |
| 01:41 | <@Tarinaky> | If you do the questions you'll practice the techniques... |
| 01:42 | < ktemkin> | I set many of the optional assignments because I thing they're good things to know for life as an engineer, but are beyond what I have time to cover in class in detail. |
| 01:42 | < ktemkin> | *think |
| 01:43 | <@Tarinaky> | I have to confess though. My experiences are coloured by being an undergrad. |
| 01:43 | <@Tarinaky> | Likewise, the other anecdotes in this channel were from marking/demonstrating for undergrad courses. |
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| 01:44 | < ktemkin> | I think your view's a little pessimistic. |
| 01:44 | <@Tarinaky> | If you think I'm pessimistic you're either sheltered or optimistic. |
| 01:45 | <@Tarinaky> | I've seen lectures where there's been more empty seats than full followed by an exam hall that's /packed/. |
| 01:45 | <@Azash> | That's how it works here as well |
| 01:46 | <@Azash> | Most people simply don't learn effectively from lectures |
| 01:46 | <@Tarinaky> | This module was an extreme example where there wasn't enough people to fill a row. |
| 01:46 | <@Tarinaky> | And they all sat at the back. |
| 01:47 | <@Tarinaky> | Much to the annoyance of the lecturer :p |
| 01:47 | <@Tarinaky> | But this module was an extreme example. |
| 01:47 | < ktemkin> | "Most people simply don't learn effectively from lectures" <-- That is consistent with the presiding view cognitive psychology, which basically says that people can't work analytically on a task for more than around ~20 minutes. |
| 01:48 | <@Tarinaky> | I skipped out on most/all of my compsci lectures in my first year. |
| 01:48 | < ktemkin> | That doesn't mean that a good instructor who cares and is willing to deviate from traditional teaching styles can't create student engagement beyond what's yielded by assessment. |
| 01:49 | <@Tarinaky> | That doesn't mean that the students' primary motivation isn't to get marks. |
| 01:49 | < ktemkin> | Some of them will come in with that motivation, yes. |
| 01:50 | < ktemkin> | And many of them will come back to take another class with you even though they don't need the class because they actually felt better about themselves and what they learned in a good, well-structured class. |
| 01:50 | <@Tarinaky> | "Don't need the class" don't you need a minimum number of credits? |
| 01:51 | <@Tarinaky> | We can all agree that doing a good class is better than doing a bad class. |
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| 01:51 | < ktemkin> | Tarinaky: Some of them don't even get /credit/ for the class. |
| 01:51 | <&McMartin> | Also, some of them are "pick N from these (large multiple of N) classes" |
| 01:52 | < ktemkin> | And I don't disagree that degrees (and the requirements thereof) are a hugely motivating factor for most students-- that's why them came to university. |
| 01:52 | <@Tarinaky> | There's an easy test. Offer the students a really high mark on the condition that you never see them again. See what percentage of a sample take the offer or refuse it. |
| 01:52 | <@Tarinaky> | Compare it to the hypothesis. |
| 01:53 | <&McMartin> | That seems like an unethical experiment~ |
| 01:53 | < ktemkin> | I don't agree that you'd have to be egotistical to think that students can be motivated by things other than marks. |
| 01:53 | <@Tarinaky> | I didn't say that, strictly. |
| 01:54 | <@Tarinaky> | I said you'd have to be egotistical to think that your lectures were the dogs gonads. |
| 01:54 | | Derakon[AFK] is now known as Derakon |
| 01:54 | <&McMartin> | Not really? |
| 01:54 | <&McMartin> | Students review classes. It's entirely possible to have a realistic sense of one's strengths and weaknesses |
| 01:54 | <@Tarinaky> | We all know that one lecturer who's lectures we wouldn't have taken up that offer for. That doesn't necissarily mean you're one of them. |
| 01:55 | < ktemkin> | There are quantitvate measures of learning gain. |
| 01:55 | <@Tarinaky> | McMartin: That doesn't necissarily mean you aren't egotistical. |
| 01:55 | <@Tarinaky> | You can be good /and/ a prick. |
| 01:55 | <&McMartin> | Er, you are using that word in a way with which I am unfamiliar. |
| 01:56 | < ktemkin> | You're using a popular but misguided construction of humility. |
| 01:56 | <&McMartin> | "Avoiding false modesty" != "being an egotist" |
| 01:56 | < ktemkin> | Humility doesn't implore you to ignore all evidence that says you're actually capable or good at something. |
| 01:58 | <@Tarinaky> | Okay, fine. |
| 01:58 | <@Tarinaky> | Most students are still motivated by credits most of the time >.> |
| 01:58 | < ktemkin> | There's an old Jewish joke that this reminds me of: http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=1dLeb2u0 |
| 01:59 | <@Reiv> | Tarinaky: Could be you're just lazy, and projecting~ |
| 01:59 | <@Tarinaky> | At least one student is motivated by credits some of the time. |
| 02:00 | <@Tarinaky> | :p |
| 02:00 | <@Tarinaky> | *at least some of the time |
| 02:00 | < ktemkin> | "Most students are still motivated by credits most of the time >.>" <-- That's probably a valid generalization, considering how poorly a lot of classes are run. |
| 02:00 | <@Tarinaky> | And at least one sheep in scotland is black on at least one side. |
| 02:01 | < ktemkin> | That doesn't mean we should just assume that it'll be that way for our classes; and it especially doesn't mean we should ignore evidence to the contrary. |
| 02:01 | <@Tarinaky> | It does mean I should treat you with cynism when you make your claim. |
| 02:02 | <@Tarinaky> | Which was the act that spurred this discussion/argument/noun. |
| 02:05 | < ktemkin> | It's not precisely correct to updated your beliefs by assuming that other people think in the same way you do (that's the Typical Mind Fallacy). |
| 02:05 | < ktemkin> | *to update your |
| 02:05 | <@Tarinaky> | Oh I'm not. |
| 02:05 | <@Tarinaky> | That was just a funny joke. |
| 02:06 | <@Tarinaky> | It's based on the sample of people I've met while at universities. |
| 02:07 | < ktemkin> | (The Availability Heuristic) |
| 02:09 | | * Tarinaky looks that up on wikipedia. |
| 02:10 | <@Tarinaky> | Well gee, I don't go around with a clipboard and a pen recording a detailed census of everything ever on the off chance that I might need it to justify my pessimism? |
| 02:10 | < ktemkin> | "I might need it to justify my pessimism" <-- That's your problem. |
| 02:10 | <@Tarinaky> | I fail to see the problem. |
| 02:10 | < ktemkin> | You're starting from a conclusion and looking for evidence that backs it up, rather than looking at evidence and using it to figure out the most probable conclusion. |
| 02:12 | < ktemkin> | As a result, you're incorrectly building a pool of evidence on only one side, rather than getting a representative collection of evidence. |
| 02:12 | <@Tarinaky> | I am not prepared to go around with a clipboard and a pen recording a detailed census of everything ever on the off chance that I might need to form an opinion on something. |
| 02:12 | <@Tarinaky> | Especially when said opinion is used to talk to a stranger on the internet. |
| 02:14 | < ktemkin> | Speaking in terms of cognitive psychology, your System 1 (the fast parallel part of your brain that deals in intuitions) provides a quick heuristic answer to the question "Can there be large bodies of students motivated by things other than marks?" using a set of heuristics, and yields "No, that seems unrepresentative of the stereotype of students my mind has constructed." |
| 02:15 | <@Tarinaky> | And it's a perfectly reasonable guess? |
| 02:15 | < ktemkin> | From there, your System 2 (the logical, sequential part of your brain) is used to verify the heuristic answer. From there, you can choose to go over all evidence and come up with a conclusion, or go with your (biased, but not necessarily incorrect) intuition. |
| 02:16 | < ktemkin> | If you choose to say "Let me look up evidence that supports my intuition", you'll always wind up going with the biased answer. |
| 02:16 | <@Tarinaky> | I didn't care enough to look up evidence. |
| 02:16 | < ktemkin> | Who cares about the other person on the internet? There should be enough of a drive within you to /want/ to have a view that meshes correctly with reality. |
| 02:17 | <@Tarinaky> | That sounds like the typical mind fallacy :p |
| 02:18 | < ktemkin> | No, that sounds like a statement of what I believe is moral. |
| 02:18 | <@Tarinaky> | I only need an approximation... and a poor one a that. |
| 02:18 | <@Tarinaky> | It's unreasonable and impossible to know everything ever. |
| 02:19 | < ktemkin> | Right; but it's also unreasonable to use that as justification to not seek evidence, or ignore evidence. |
| 02:19 | < ktemkin> | You can't know everything with one-hundred-percent accuracy, but you can work to ensure you're an engine that produces the best possible approximations/guesses. |
| 02:19 | <@Tarinaky> | I... don't really see why I have a moral obligation to seek out evidence for its own sake :/ |
| 02:20 | < ktemkin> | In general, having an accurate model of reality allows you the most control over it. |
| 02:20 | <@Tarinaky> | I only require control over a subset of reality... |
| 02:20 | < ktemkin> | If you know how reality behaves, you can take advantage of it to give yourself the best chances of getting what you want. |
| 02:20 | <@Tarinaky> | So the things I want and care about? Those I'll research and put in effort. |
| 02:22 | < ktemkin> | It definitely seems like a poor point of view to say "I have a poor approximation of something that's contrary to your statement-- that tells me that you're wrong!" |
| 02:22 | <@Tarinaky> | It motivates people to either quickly present me evidence that supports them or move on. |
| 02:23 | < ktemkin> | Further, your brain is highly associative-- when you get into habits, like rationalization-- it's hard to control where they start being applied. |
| 02:24 | <@Tarinaky> | Speaking of, bored now. I'm going to go get food. |
| 02:26 | <@Tarinaky> | http://aras-p.info/toys/my-next-paper.php Heh. |
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| 04:10 | <~Vornicus> | so many typedef map's |
| 04:17 | <~Vornicus> | (I've got 9 already) |
| 04:18 | <@Reiv> | NUKE |
| 04:20 | <~Vornicus> | oh god |
| 04:23 | <@Reiv> | 'oh god'? |
| 04:24 | <&Derakon> | It's full of angle brackets! |
| 04:29 | <@Tarinaky> | Oh no not again. |
| 04:30 | <@Azash> | Oho, this is an interesting problem |
| 04:30 | <&Derakon> | I don't see any petunias here. |
| 04:30 | <@Azash> | Doing Coursera's crypto thing |
| 04:30 | <@Azash> | There's one assignment that gives 12 or so ciphertexts, all XORed with the same key |
| 04:30 | <@Azash> | And you have to figure it out and decrypt the 13th one |
| 04:35 | <&Derakon> | It occurs to me that I have no idea how to do that. I never did crypto in school. |
| 04:36 | <@Namegduf> | A' = A XOR K |
| 04:36 | <@Namegduf> | B' = B XOR K |
| 04:36 | <@Namegduf> | A' XOR B' = ... |
| 04:36 | <@Namegduf> | I did do crypto, I didn't figure that out on sight. |
| 04:37 | <@Namegduf> | A one-time pad used twice isn't just theoretically insecure, it's suddenly "little brother" encryption. |
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| 04:38 | <@Azash> | Yeah, like Russia in WWII found out |
| 04:38 | <@Namegduf> | Yes. |
| 04:38 | <@Tarinaky> | A' XOR B' = A XOR B? |
| 04:38 | <@Azash> | The thing is that XORing A-Za-z with a space has an interesting property |
| 04:38 | <@Namegduf> | Tarinaky: Yep! |
| 04:38 | <@Azash> | And that's the entire alphabet |
| 04:39 | <@Azash> | That property is that as space is 0010 0000, it will just flip the sixth bit |
| 04:39 | <@Tarinaky> | Azash: If you're an English speaker. |
| 04:39 | <@Tarinaky> | Which the Russians aren't. |
| 04:39 | <@Azash> | What |
| 04:39 | <@Tarinaky> | Russians speak Russian? Russian is written using the Cyrillic Alphabet? |
| 04:39 | <@Azash> | Sorry, I should have been clearer I changed the subject |
| 04:39 | <@Tarinaky> | Oh, okay. |
| 04:40 | <@Namegduf> | They use a non A-Za-z alphabet, so yeah, you couldn't do that simple way to recognise things, but there's lots of little tricks you can do. |
| 04:40 | <@Azash> | The WWII thing is that because Russians reused the keys for their OTPs it became easy to find out what the keys were |
| 04:40 | <@Azash> | I continued talking about the Coursera assignment after that tangent |
| 04:40 | <@Namegduf> | If there's any predictable content you can use it. |
| 04:40 | <@Namegduf> | Formatting, headers (for files), etc. |
| 04:40 | <@Namegduf> | To get the corresponding content in the other plaintext. |
| 04:41 | <@Namegduf> | There's less straightforward attacks, too. |
| 04:41 | <@Azash> | Oh also Namegduf |
| 04:42 | <@Azash> | About flipping the sixth bit, that just switches between eg. a and A |
| 04:42 | <@Azash> | So basically if you XOR two cipher texts and the result for a certain byte is a letter |
| 04:42 | <@Azash> | Then one of the cipher texts has a space at that byte and the other has a letter of the inverted capitalization |
| 04:42 | <@Namegduf> | Assuming the two ciphertexts are believed to be ASCII |
| 04:42 | <@Namegduf> | Yeah |
| 04:43 | <@Azash> | They are if I am inferring correctly from the assignment |
| 04:43 | <@Namegduf> | Probably, yeah |
| 04:43 | <@Namegduf> | The encryption is stupid weak but you need to get overly inventive to attack it for arbitrary content |
| 04:44 | <@Namegduf> | I don't know how to use 12 all together better than just analysing pairs |
| 04:44 | <@Namegduf> | But it is probably possible |
| 04:45 | <@Namegduf> | Maybe not required for what you're doing, though. |
| 04:46 | <@Azash> | Need to figure out the encryption key to decrypt number 13 |
| 04:47 | <@Azash> | So basically need to keep finding those pairs and using them to smoke out the corresponding plaintext characters in the CT so I can then figure out what the key is at that specific byte |
| 04:48 | <@Namegduf> | Yeah, seems like an approach which will work and is likely what they wanted you to use. |
| 04:48 | <@Namegduf> | Once you have a decent chunk of one plaintext, you can possibly guess the rest of it if it is made out of words. |
| 04:49 | <@Namegduf> | And then that's the ballgame. |
| 05:36 | | Derakon is now known as Derakon[AFK] |
| 06:07 | <@Azash> | I tried to automate it but still needs a bit of thought |
| 06:07 | <@Azash> | Good enough for today |
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| 08:58 | | You're now known as TheWatcher |
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| 10:44 | | * TheWatcher ughs, tries to get his brain into this problem |
| 10:44 | <&McMartin> | Woo, awesome |
| 10:45 | <&McMartin> | This is a decades-solved problem, but it's nice to see it actually working in a C implementation~ |
| 10:45 | <@TheWatcher> | ? |
| 10:45 | | * McMartin has been building up to a high-quality C implementation for Red-Black trees. |
| 10:45 | <&McMartin> | I'm up to "generic binary search trees", and got node deletion to actually work right. |
| 10:46 | <&McMartin> | Which is no small feat because there are like five corner cases -_- |
| 10:46 | <&McMartin> | And also the algorithm given in my reference is intentionally wrong~ |
| 10:46 | <&McMartin> | (A danger of using old textbooks for references) |
| 10:52 | | Kindamoody is now known as Kindamoody|out |
| 10:55 | | * TheWatcher feels a Zathras moment coming on with this system. Requirements involve adding in something that is, fundamentally, not something that should really be in the system, save for people insisting it must be |
| 11:03 | <&McMartin> | Urgh. |
| 11:03 | <&McMartin> | OK, I take it back |
| 11:04 | <&McMartin> | There are 24 distinct cases for binary tree deletion. |
| 11:04 | | * McMartin will deal with that Later (tm). |
| 11:06 | <@TheWatcher> | Oh, hey. From one UI problem to another, joyousness |
| 11:06 | <&McMartin> | (Three kinds of illegal input, node is root/a left child/a right child and is a leaf/has one child on left/has one child on right, or node has two children, with all previous variation and whose successor node has all previous variation except for the ones that are impossible; the succesor node cannot have a left child, nor can it be root) |
| 11:07 | <&McMartin> | I think my unit testing methodology will be to do structure dumps after the various operations, verify the results by hand, and then have the human-verifiable output be a text file for diffing against later. |
| 11:33 | | * TheWatcher flails at this |
| 11:34 | < AnnoDomini> | http://fatpita.net/images/image%20(10864).jpg?6842 |
| 11:36 | <@TheWatcher> | Users can schedule articles for release, provided that they have access to one or more sections in the schedule template. Which is okay, can deal with that... but what happens if the user schedules an article, has their permission removed, tries to edit the article - they no longer have access to the schedule. I probably need to modify the permission handling for editing so that having edit permission on an article in a given schedule section |
| 11:36 | <@TheWatcher> | automatically confers the ability to access that section for the edit. |
| 11:37 | <@TheWatcher> | AD: duuude |
| 11:47 | <~Vornicus> | I must admit that is fewer inputs than I would have expected for that |
| 13:19 | | * gnolam snickers. |
| 13:19 | <@gnolam> | I just ran into a datasheet that specified "teat voltage". |
| 13:20 | <@gnolam> | Turns out, this isn't an unusual typo/mis-OCR: https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&source=hp&biw=&bih=&q=%22teat+voltage%22&btn G=Google+Search&gbv=1 |
| 13:21 | <@Tamber> | Huh |
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| 13:39 | <@TheWatcher> | Well, the keys are right next to each other |
| 13:40 | <~Vornicus> | ...what's it supposed to be? |
| 13:40 | <~Vornicus> | oh, test voltage. okay. |
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| 13:58 | <@TheWatcher> | Ugh. So, articles can be added to schedules to be collected and sent later. All schedules contain one or more sections, and articles must be placed within a section. Sections can contain multiple articles, but how to control the ordering |
| 13:59 | <@TheWatcher> | Allowing the user to control the order when adding articles sounds nice, except that if a user needs their article to appear at the start of the section, places it there, and then another user comes along and puts another article before it... |
| 14:00 | <@TheWatcher> | Maybe I should just give articles priorities within sections (high ones appear first, then normal, then low), and then sort articles with the same priority based on... title? Creation date? Hrm. |
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| 14:31 | <@TheWatcher> | Now, how to convert crontab lines to human readable strings... |
| 14:45 | | himi [fow035@Nightstar-5d05bada.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 121 seconds] |
| 14:57 | < Syka> | TheWatcher: they are human readable |
| 14:57 | < Syka> | human understandable, though... :P |
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| 14:59 | <@TheWatcher> | Okay, let me reword: readable by secretarial staff |
| 14:59 | < Syka> | oh |
| 14:59 | < Syka> | yeah, that's going to be fun :P |
| 15:00 | < Syka> | wtf, fuji xerox |
| 15:06 | < ktemkin[awol]> | I've seen things that try to do that on the web. |
| 15:06 | | ktemkin[awol] is now known as ktemkin |
| 15:08 | < ktemkin> | Usually they wind up with output like "4 minuets past every hour, on the fourth day of each month" |
| 15:08 | < ktemkin> | *minutes |
| 15:09 | | * TheWatcher is just going to wrangle http://backpan.perl.org/authors/id/W/WR/WRW/showcrontab into something usable for his purposes |
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| 15:42 | < ktemkin> | So, thanks to my optometrist, I can only program in sunglesses for the next while. |
| 15:42 | < ktemkin> | This is awkward. |
| 15:43 | < RichyB> | Turn your screen brightness way up :D |
| 15:47 | < ktemkin> | The brightness is apparently the problem. My corneas are overstressed from staring at (relatively bright) computer monitors. |
| 15:48 | <@Tamber> | Time for a light-on-dark colour scheme? |
| 15:48 | < ktemkin> | I'm using zenburn. |
| 15:48 | <@Tamber> | ? |
| 15:48 | < ktemkin> | http://slinky.imukuppi.org/wpress/wp-content/uploads/2008/04/zenburn.png <-- Color theme that's supposed to be easy on the eyes. |
| 15:49 | <@Tamber> | Hmm |
| 15:49 | < ktemkin> | Unfortunately, I can't style the web so easily. |
| 15:50 | < ktemkin> | Webpages (including the learning managment system that I develop plugins for and use to teach) tend to have bright backgrounds. |
| 15:50 | <@Tamber> | "[ ] Allow pages to choose their own colours, instead of my selections above." |
| 15:51 | <@Tamber> | (It's a real pig to have to go through the options to toggle that on and off, though; which is biggest reason I keep the web-dev toolbar around, so it's in a dropdown. >.> ) |
| 15:52 | < ktemkin> | I could also just use something like Stylish on the pages I'm on most frequently. |
| 15:53 | < ktemkin> | I've been avoiding doing that, as I like it when the things I'm developing look the same as they will to my end-users. |
| 15:54 | < ktemkin> | At some point, I'll have to weigh all these things and see what yields the most utility. |
| 16:04 | < RichyB> | ? zenburn |
| 16:04 | < RichyB> | I've had the emacs version of that installed for ages. |
| 16:05 | <@gnolam> | Wait, overstressed /corneas/? |
| 16:07 | < ktemkin> | That's a bad way to put it; yes. My corneas are swollen due to overstress. |
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| 16:08 | < ktemkin> | I'm assuming the overstress itself is to the focusing muscles, but I wasn't given all that technical a description by my opthamologist. |
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| 17:18 | <@Alek> | ktemkin, try f.lux or some such, maybe? |
| 17:23 | <@Tarinaky> | F.lux is the best thing ever. |
| 17:24 | | io\FUCKYES is now known as iospace |
| 17:53 | | * gnolam stabs people who use kilogram-force. |
| 17:53 | <@Tarinaky> | ? |
| 17:55 | <@gnolam> | NEWTONS, MOTHERFUCKER, DO YOU SPEAK THEM |
| 17:55 | <@Tarinaky> | What are killogram-force? |
| 17:56 | < Syka> | kilogram... force |
| 17:56 | < Syka> | wat |
| 17:56 | <@Tarinaky> | *kilogram-force |
| 17:56 | < Syka> | mass-force |
| 17:56 | <@Tarinaky> | I've heard Americans measure force in pounds. |
| 17:57 | < Syka> | oh |
| 17:57 | < Syka> | pounds of pressure |
| 17:58 | <@Tarinaky> | No, pressure would be pounds per square inch / pascals / newtons per square meter... |
| 17:58 | < Syka> | which is a force/area measurement, or something |
| 17:59 | <@Tamber> | Tarinaky, ft-lbf. (Feet pounds force.) |
| 18:00 | <@Tamber> | or foot pounds force. Either way, fuck it sideways~ |
| 18:00 | <@Tarinaky> | What is ft-lbf? |
| 18:00 | < Syka> | Tamber: forcefully fuck it sideways? :D |
| 18:00 | <@Tamber> | Tarinaky, ...shit, nevermind; I'm giving the units of torque. |
| 18:01 | <@Tarinaky> | Oh good. I was worried I'd gone mental. |
| 18:01 | <@Tamber> | Who the fuck knows, with US Customary/Imperial~ |
| 18:01 | <@Tamber> | :D |
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| 19:33 | <@iospace> | hey ToxicFrog |
| 19:34 | <@iospace> | guess what i'm looking at right now :3 |
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| 19:49 | <&ToxicFrog> | iospace: circuit diagrams |
| 19:49 | <@iospace> | ToxicFrog: nope! |
| 19:50 | <@iospace> | the EDS for intel 6 series PCHs |
| 19:50 | <@iospace> | :P |
| 19:50 | <&ToxicFrog> | EAP? |
| 19:50 | <@iospace> | EDS |
| 19:50 | <&ToxicFrog> | Expand Acronym Please |
| 19:50 | <@iospace> | External Design Spec |
| 19:55 | <@iospace> | basically the spec sheet for the PCH |
| 19:55 | <@iospace> | or platform controller hub |
| 19:55 | <@iospace> | aka chipset |
| 19:56 | <&ToxicFrog> | Aah |
| 19:57 | | * iospace shrugs |
| 20:03 | < RichyB> | This is the documentation that you would need to be able to build motherboards for Haswell chips? |
| 20:07 | <@iospace> | that's 8 series |
| 20:08 | <@iospace> | more or less |
| 20:08 | <@iospace> | Haswell though is the CPU, not the PCH |
| 20:09 | < RichyB> | Does each PCH support a different set of CPUs and DIMMs? |
| 20:10 | <@iospace> | uhm |
| 20:10 | <@iospace> | DIMM is something that is CPU based |
| 20:10 | <@iospace> | not PCH |
| 20:10 | < RichyB> | PCH needs to understand the RAM to do DMA though, no? |
| 20:11 | < RichyB> | Does PCI/PCI-E/etc DMA now go through the CPU's memory controller? |
| 20:11 | <@iospace> | ... the PCH isn't hooked up to the RAM |
| 20:11 | <@iospace> | NDA |
| 20:11 | <@iospace> | :P |
| 20:12 | < RichyB> | The PCH is, what, everything from the south-bridge down? |
| 20:12 | <@iospace> | 14:55:29 <@iospace> aka chipset |
| 20:12 | | * iospace sighs |
| 20:12 | < RichyB> | quit sighing and educate the ignorant motherfucker, please |
| 20:13 | <@iospace> | and quit pestering me for long explainations while i'm at work |
| 20:13 | < RichyB> | I don't know precisely what set of hardware & functionality the term "chipset" refers to, hence I'm asking more questions. |
| 20:13 | < RichyB> | Fair enough. |
| 20:19 | <@Azash> | I might be catastrophically wrong as usual but isn't the chipset just the defined CPU-mobo interface? |
| 20:22 | <@iospace> | no? |
| 20:24 | < RichyB> | See? Confusion! ;P |
| 20:25 | < Syka> | the chipset is uh |
| 20:27 | < Syka> | it's pretty much the mobo, isn't it |
| 20:28 | < RichyB> | That was the impression that I had. ?? |
| 20:29 | <@iospace> | it's not |
| 20:30 | <@Azash> | I should probably stop making claims here ( ???) |
| 20:30 | < Syka> | oh wait |
| 20:31 | < Syka> | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Intel_5_Series_architecture.png |
| 20:31 | < Syka> | here |
| 20:31 | < Syka> | have a picture |
| 20:31 | <@iospace> | they moved the display off the PCH with the 6 series, but otherwise yes |
| 20:31 | <@iospace> | (it's on the CPU now) |
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| 20:33 | <@iospace> | or i forget |
| 20:33 | <@iospace> | not entirely sure |
| 20:33 | | * iospace shrugs |
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| 23:59 | <&McMartin> | man |
| 23:59 | <&McMartin> | Despite the fact that I almost never use it, I've gotten way better at C in the past six years. |
| 23:59 | <@Azash> | \o/ |
| --- Log closed Thu Jun 27 00:00:36 2013 |