code logs -> 2013 -> Fri, 31 May 2013< code.20130530.log - code.20130601.log >
--- Log opened Fri May 31 00:00:52 2013
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00:14
<@Azash>
small basic computer adventures
00:14
<@Azash>
Oops
00:14
<@Azash>
https://bugs.launchpad.net/renpy/+bug/417439
00:14
<@Azash>
There we go
00:14
<@Tamber>
*snrk*
00:15
<@Tamber>
Hooray, open-source software \o/
00:29 * Azash reads Oregon Trail source: "6310 IF 100*RND(-1)<100-(40/4**(E-1)) THEN 6410"
00:30
<@Azash>
Yes, exactly
00:31
<&McMartin>
Oregon Trail source wat
00:31 459AAERZ5 is now known as Derakon
00:32
<&McMartin>
Also, man
00:33
<&McMartin>
I really ought to try to get Archie and Mehitabel's Guide To Almost Painless Structured Basic working in DOSBOX
00:34
<&McMartin>
It's a 30 KLOC BASIC program about how to write 30 KLOC BASIC programs without going mad
00:35
<@Azash>
McMartin: 18:06 * Azash gets a brilliant IRC bot idea: An oregon trail bot that lets you take an action every 15 minutes
00:36
<&McMartin>
Yeah, I remember that
00:36
<&McMartin>
But your most recent comment implied you had access to the old sources
00:36
<@Tamber>
McM: The problem there is it assumes you're writing 30kLOC BASIC programs without already being mad. :)
00:36
<@Azash>
McMartin: I have a copy here, yeah
00:37
<&McMartin>
Is it online somewhere?
00:37
<@Azash>
10 REM PROGRAM NAME - OREGON VERSION: 01/01/78
00:37
<@Azash>
20 REM ORIGINAL PROGRAMMING BY BILL HEINEMANN - 1971
00:37
<@Azash>
http://deserthat.files.wordpress.com/2010/11/oregon1.doc
00:37 * McMartin likes to collect sources of formative games of yore
00:37
<&McMartin>
Many thanks
00:38
<&McMartin>
"For explanations of what variable names mean, list lines XXXX-YYYY"
00:38
<&McMartin>
In the days before Doxygen, this is how we rolled
00:38
<&McMartin>
And good for him for so doing.
00:39 * McMartin has the original Prince of Persia sources around here somewhere, too
00:39
<@Azash>
Share
00:40
<&McMartin>
Oh man, do I have the machine versions
00:40
<&McMartin>
For the full effect I printed it out
00:40
<@Azash>
Oh dear
00:40
<@Tamber>
Full effect on target?
00:41 * Tamber imagines a sizable machine-listing being dropped, winces
00:41
<&McMartin>
https://github.com/jmechner/Prince-of-Persia-Apple-II
00:41
<&McMartin>
It turns out that when you only have 128KB of RAMs, there's a real limit to size
00:41
<&McMartin>
http://jordanmechner.com/blog/2012/04/source/
00:41
<@Azash>
Cheers
00:42
<&McMartin>
Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
00:42
<&McMartin>
"Jamie -- who knows the term "source code" primarily as the title of the movie Jake Gyllenhaal did after Prince of Persia"
00:42
<&McMartin>
How did I miss that line the first time
00:42
<&McMartin>
I would have been quoting it *all the time*
00:42
<@Azash>
:P
00:52 * McMartin reads the context behind that source code
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00:53
<&McMartin>
This ought to be easy (though not trivial, as there are real-time elements) to port.
00:54
<&McMartin>
( http://deserthat.wordpress.com/2010/11/07/oregon-trail-ver-3-basic-3-1-1978/ )
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01:00
<@Azash>
McMartin: I'm not porting it as much as taking the logic from behind the code
01:01
<@Azash>
As I need to have it in a form that preferable generates one message per prompt-to-act, no more than two
01:03 * McMartin nods
01:03
<&McMartin>
Yeah. I was referring to the bit at the end where he laments not having a working emulator
01:03
<@Azash>
Ah
01:03
<&McMartin>
I see you are several steps ahead of me ;-)
01:03
<@Azash>
My bad
01:03
<@Azash>
Haha
01:03
<@Azash>
I'd be wary of thinking that of anyone in this channel really
01:03 * Azash is a lazy novice
01:04
<&McMartin>
I guess I count as a vet now, though I hope to remain ungrizzled for a while
01:04
<&McMartin>
But being easily distracted produces similar results, and, well, 70s BASIC games are structurally pretty simple
01:04 Turaiel[Offline] is now known as Turaiel
01:04
<&McMartin>
... they're all Liftoff reskins, come to think of it
01:04
<&McMartin>
10 ALLOCATE RESOURCES
01:04
<&McMartin>
20 UNLEASH RANDOM DISASTERS IN WORRYING DETAIL
01:04
<&McMartin>
30 GOTO 10
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01:59
<&ToxicFrog>
ahahahahahaha what in the entire fuck
01:59
<&ToxicFrog>
In the year 2013, GNU Make still doesn't handle filenames with spaces in them
02:00
<@gnolam>
Still? Jesus Christ.
02:04
<&McMartin>
That would be selling out to M$
02:06
<@gnolam>
Sadly, that is probably the exact reasoning.
02:07
<@gnolam>
Dollar sign and all.
02:08
<&ToxicFrog>
You know, I was kind of considering looking for another build tool that could be deployed as a stand-alone thing
02:08
<&McMartin>
At least the FSF admits now that MSVS's linking ABI is not mysteriously intrinsically incompatible with the LGPL
02:08
<&ToxicFrog>
But you know what, fuck it
02:08
<&ToxicFrog>
I'll just use bash
02:09
<&McMartin>
Welcome to the UQM project, five years ago. -_-
02:09
<&McMartin>
At some point I will need to learn SCons, I think.
02:12
<&ToxicFrog>
I was considering waf, since that's self-contained
02:12
<&ToxicFrog>
Normally I'd go for pm but I must finally admit that that is a dead project
02:13 * McMartin decides it's time to head into the office, as while WFH is nice, it does not have as good restaurants nearby.
02:18
<&Derakon>
So you're going in to the office to get dinner?
02:19
<&McMartin>
Actually, to check in on a couple of things, and then go somewhere nearer the office to get dinner thereby.
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04:39
<~Vornicus>
Hm. Is the latest version of inform in fact 6G30?
04:40
<~Vornicus>
er, 6G60, I can type?
04:44
<&McMartin>
YEs, still 6G
04:49
<~Vornicus>
(I was concerned mostly because it has an update date of, uh, three years ago)
04:51
< Derakon_>
IF is a stable technology~
04:54
<&McMartin>
Life happened, also, and I think the plan is less to add stuff at this point and more refactor it so that other people can actually continue it later
04:58
< JBeshir>
Refactor + Life happening usually means "dead project" IME
04:58
< Derakon_>
Not dead; only sleeping.
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05:50 * Vornicus completely derps at this code he just made. How could he have missed that one.
06:16 AverageJoe [evil1@61024F.B1DB7D.E87B5D.526FE4] has joined #code
06:20
<&Derakon>
Okay, Thomas Was Alone is pretty quality.
06:20
<&Derakon>
And I'm quite happy that they make use of what I initially thought was a glitch.
06:20
<&Derakon>
(After showing it to you so you know it's actually a thing)
06:22
<&Derakon>
At any rate it's done a good job of clearing the stress from dealing with Comcast~
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06:59 * Vornicus blibbleblibbleblibbs. Feels really silly.
07:00
<~Vornicus>
It's like I can't math at all today.
07:09
< Syka>
I had that last night
07:09
< Syka>
26 + 26 + 10 + 2 last night was 72 to me
07:23 You're now known as TheWatcher
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10:18
<@Azash>
Once these exams are over I'm going to focus over the summer into developing as a programmer
10:18
<@Azash>
What books and languages are there I should work on first? TAOCP, Cormen, CC? C, Haskell?
10:21
<~Vornicus>
What do you know, what do you want to try to do?
10:23
<@Azash>
I know C and Java on an intermediate level and have dabbled in Haskell, LUA, PHP and node.js/JS, I have some programming experience and practical (not very theoretical) knowledge of the usual algorithms and data structures
10:24
<@Azash>
Just to be able to produce sane, robust and effective code
10:24
<@Azash>
And understand it
10:29
<~Vornicus>
Hng.
10:29
<@TheWatcher>
Okay, so
10:29
<~Vornicus>
Part of the difficulty here is
10:29
<~Vornicus>
"a programmer" is like "an artist" or "an engineer"
10:30
<@TheWatcher>
s/or/and/
10:30
<~Vornicus>
just because I'm pretty good with oil paints doesn't mean I could compose a song or sculpt in marble or...
10:30
<@TheWatcher>
Or even should expect to be able to
10:31
<~Vornicus>
And just because I have done some helicopter work doesn't mean I can design a bridge or a building or a tortilla machine.
10:31
< Syka>
Azash: there's always practice
10:31
<@Azash>
So, just practice?
10:31
<@Azash>
Syka: Yer
10:31
< Syka>
theory only gets you so far
10:31
<@TheWatcher>
Theory generally gets you bugger all, honestly
10:31
<~Vornicus>
Practice a lot. Pick a project that looks like you can do it, and, well, do it.
10:31
<~Vornicus>
Generally they're a lot harder than they look.
10:31
<@TheWatcher>
It's nothing without lots and lots of practice
10:32
< Syka>
the only code book i've ever actually read has been the SQLite manual by O'Reillys, so :P
10:32
<@TheWatcher>
And there are things that you need to be able to learn that simply aren't, and can't, be conveyed in textbooks and tutorials
10:32
< Syka>
eg. dealing with non-perfect systems
10:33
< Syka>
code books are like physics textbooks
10:33
<@Azash>
Right, I'll stick to practical work then
10:33
<@Azash>
Cheers~
10:33
< Syka>
they assume no air, no varying gravity and some magical world where everything has a centre of gravity in the centre
10:33
< Syka>
:P
10:34
<@Azash>
Haha
10:34
<@TheWatcher>
So yes, pick a project, something with some meat to it. Then try to work out which language(s) might be best suited to it, because "the languages I know" may or may not be in that set, and then work on it. Even if you don't finish it, the experience - and even bits of the code, if you design it well - will not be wasted
10:35
<@Azash>
Yer, that's what I had figured out I'd do
10:35
<@Azash>
I was wondering if anyone had thoughts on any, uh, "workout supplements" if the simile holds
10:35
<~Vornicus>
taocp is not generally a book I pick up and read.
10:36
<~Vornicus>
It's one I go "this is probably in the Knuth" and then open to the appropriate page.
10:36
<@Azash>
So like the Oxford then :P
10:39
<@Azash>
Thanks for all the suggestions
10:40
<@Azash>
http://img.pr0gramm.com/2013/05/wtf3gibhm9cen.png
10:41
<~Vornicus>
Yay, floats
10:45
<@gnolam>
Azash: To get some theory in, I suggest you do the classic introductory course stuff and implement a bunch of data structures in, say, C.
10:45
<@gnolam>
That'll teach you how they work under the hood and give you a feel for their strenghts and weaknesses.
10:47
<@Azash>
What are some slightly more difficult algorithms or data structures, then? I have a fairly good feel for lists, the basic 4-5 sorting algos, A* and Dijkstra, typical trees like R/B and AVL
10:47
<~Vornicus>
I have recently had to choose a data structure based on a metric that nobody seems to care about.
10:48
< Syka>
I've never implemented a tree :D
10:51
<~Vornicus>
Here's a good 'un: get a thing to do differential calculus on elementary functions.
10:52
<~Vornicus>
This is described in a little detail in one of the knuth things but I don't remember precisely where
10:53
<@Azash>
Yeah, that sounds like a good project
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10:57
<@gnolam>
https://github.com/mongodb/mongo-java-driver/blob/master/src/main/com/mongodb/Co nnectionStatus.java#L213
10:58
<@gnolam>
Azash: you should at least get some hash tables in there as well.
10:58
<@Azash>
gnolam: What? re. link
10:59
<@Azash>
And yeah, I forgot to mention those~
10:59
<@gnolam>
Line 213.
10:59
< AnnoDomini>
It appears someone is using random error catching.
11:02
<@Azash>
Well yeah, gnolam, just.. why
11:12
<~Vornicus>
gnolam: what
11:15 * TheWatcher eyes the line
11:16
<@TheWatcher>
....
11:18
<@iospace>
i hate it when people try to be cute with shit like that
11:25
< Syka>
...random... error catching?
11:25
< Syka>
why would... what
11:43
<@Tamber>
...holy shit, Syka, when you pasted that elsenet; I thought you were *taking the piss*
11:43 * Tamber boggles
11:45
< Syka>
Tamber: I always like making fun of mongodb
11:45
<@Tamber>
I know; but I thought it was a parody D:
11:45
< Syka>
roflscale all of the error catching
11:46
<@Tamber>
MongoDB: Where the parody is more serious code than our git HEAD.
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13:14
< Syka>
more mongodb fucktasticery, https://jira.mongodb.org/browse/PYTHON-532
13:16
<@TheWatcher>
"Labels: incompetence; Environment: ALL THE ENVIRONMENTS", snerk
13:18
< Syka>
oh my god my sides
13:21
<@Azash>
That's a brilliant meltdown
13:24
<@Tamber>
"...wait. Is that seriously. ... :I fuck this shit. And that shit. And this shit here. Fuck all that shit. *flips desk*"
13:25
< Syka>
thank christ i ignored mongodb
13:25
<@Azash>
Tamber: I imagine someone working with MongoDB would attach their desk to one of those big rotating spits
13:25
<@Azash>
And every 15 minutes just get up and crank the handle a couple of times
13:26
<@Tamber>
Hee
13:27
<@Tamber>
Nah, it's on a button, with pneumatic rams. Push chair back, hit the "desk" button, and cello! Greatly reduced strain on the arms from flipping desks all day.
13:27
<@Azash>
Snerk
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14:34 * ToxicFrog resyncs
14:35
<@Azash>
Pandemic: That nick change is pretty clever, can't believe it took me this long to notice it
14:35 ToxicFrog is now known as ToxicFrog|W`rkn
14:36
<&ToxicFrog|W`rkn>
Azash: fundamentally, you become a better programmer by programming. A lot.
14:36
<&ToxicFrog|W`rkn>
This is not in and of itself sufficient but it is very, very necessary.
14:38
<@Azash>
Yeah
14:38
<@Azash>
Like I specified later, I was looking for things to supplement the practical aspect with
14:42
<&ToxicFrog|W`rkn>
TAOCP I find works best as a reference; "ok, I need a sorting algorithm here" and then you grab the appropriate volume of Knuth
14:42
<&ToxicFrog|W`rkn>
The recommendations that come immediately to mind to me would be to either work through SICP, or write a compiler.
14:43
<@Azash>
Well, I do have the Dragon Book
14:43
<&ToxicFrog|W`rkn>
The former will stretch your mind, the latter will get you familiarity with a bunch of handy techniques and data structures.
14:43 * Azash gives his bookshelf an affectionate wave
14:44
<&ToxicFrog|W`rkn>
I've only had to write a compiler in anger once, but the stuff I learned - especially about lexing and parsing - in doing that and in the Compilers course keeps coming in handy.
14:44
<@Azash>
Is sippy more about the thinking or scheme itself?
14:44
<&ToxicFrog|W`rkn>
I'd say the former. I mean, it will also teach you Scheme, but the point of the book is programming and program interpretation in general.
14:48
<@Azash>
Right, cheers
14:49
<@Azash>
Would it be enough to come up with a simple language of my own for the compiler or try to follow an existing spec?
14:50
<&ToxicFrog|W`rkn>
(it is well worth the read, and ends up with you writing a complete interpreter)
14:50
<@Azash>
Ah
14:51
<&ToxicFrog|W`rkn>
Up to you! I wrote one in school for C- (a stripped down C variant) and one at work for CPL (a custom configuration/scripting language).
14:51
<&ToxicFrog|W`rkn>
I may at some point write a Lua to Clojure compiler~
14:52
<@Azash>
Yeah we have two compiler courses here, one includes a practical assignment to make an interpreter for some non-lib Java version
14:52
<&ToxicFrog|W`rkn>
This was a AOT compiler targeting an itty bitty toy processor with 8 registers
14:53
<&ToxicFrog|W`rkn>
Register allocation was the hardest part~
14:53
<@Azash>
Oh, that might be interesting in itself
14:53
<&ToxicFrog|W`rkn>
(I ended up writing the lexer in flex, the parser in yacc, and the heavy lifting in lua; turns out the lua C API lends itself very well to incremental bottom-up AST creation)
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14:54
<@Azash>
It can't be worse than trying to use Rhino
15:06
<@Pandemic>
Thanks Azash
15:17
<&ToxicFrog|W`rkn>
Azash: I've never used Rhino except as a REPL
15:17
<&ToxicFrog|W`rkn>
Lua has a stack-based API, so reading a terminal just involves pushing it onto the stack, and creating a nonterminal consists of popping the top N items, packing them into a table, and pushing the table
15:18
<&ToxicFrog|W`rkn>
And when you're done the value on top of the stack is S
15:18
<@Azash>
Nice
15:19
<@Azash>
And yeah had to get a JS AST solution once
15:19
<@Azash>
Originally considered Rhino but it has no documentation, very few comments and a fairly mystical code base
15:27
<&ToxicFrog|W`rkn>
Nice
15:30
< Xon>
ToxicFrog|W`rkn, recursive descent parsers are quite easy to write
15:30
< Xon>
and if your grammer is such a mess that you are hitting recusion limits you probably need to think up something more sane
15:31
<@Azash>
Hm
15:31 celticminstrel [celticminst@Nightstar-e83b3651.cable.rogers.com] has quit [[NS] Quit: KABOOM! It seems that I have exploded. Please wait while I reinstall the universe.]
15:31
<@Azash>
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukkonen%27s_algorithm
15:32
<@Azash>
Ukkonen is the head of our dept, maybe I should learn this :b
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15:37
<&ToxicFrog|W`rkn>
Xon: this is true, but were were encouraged to use flex/yacc and they are easy to write config files for based on the formal specification.
15:37
<&ToxicFrog|W`rkn>
The CPL analyzer used PEGs, and the vstruct parser is recursive descent.
15:38
< Xon>
one property about hand crafted parsers is you can give actually sane error messages compared to trying to beat flex/yacc into doing that =p
15:39
<&ToxicFrog|W`rkn>
I actually found getting sane error messages out of yacc to be pretty easy. Likewise scala's combinator library.
15:39
<&ToxicFrog|W`rkn>
LPEG, on the other hand? Just give up.
15:39
< Xon>
hehe
15:40
<&ToxicFrog|W`rkn>
(and vstruct actually needs a major overhaul to error handling which is, i think, my next big project for it)
15:42
<&ToxicFrog|W`rkn>
(error reporting in the parser is alright, but runtime error reporting is kind of rubbish and there's a bunch of stuff that reports internal errors that should be detected and handled as environment errors)
15:51
<&ToxicFrog|W`rkn>
(this means that occasionally I get an email with a hugeass stack trace attached when the actual problem is "you passed it a truncated file")
15:51
< Xon>
lol
16:00 himi [fow035@Nightstar-5d05bada.internode.on.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 121 seconds]
16:09
<@Azash>
Re. MongoDB https://twitter.com/strlen/status/340292997918883841
16:10
<&ToxicFrog|W`rkn>
what
16:10
<&ToxicFrog|W`rkn>
is there any sort of context for that
16:10
<@Azash>
Yeah, hang on
16:11
<@Azash>
11:57 <@gnolam> https://github.com/mongodb/mongo-java-driver/blob/master/src/main/com/mongodb/Co nnectionStatus.java#L213
16:12 Turaiel[Offline] is now known as Turaiel
16:13
< [R]>
Lovely.
16:15
<&ToxicFrog|W`rkn>
First thought: they should have written that as (_ok || Math.random() > 0.1), the ?: just confuses matters.
16:15
<&ToxicFrog|W`rkn>
Second thought: AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAA
16:16
<@TheWatcher>
I think you missed a few 'A's there~
16:17
<&ToxicFrog|W`rkn>
I mean, I guess they were trying for something kind of like LOG_EVERY there, but aaaaaugh no
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16:35
< [R]>
if (!_ok && Math.random() <= 0.1) // fixed to not have all the parens. But that's like the least of the issues with that statement.
16:37
<&ToxicFrog|W`rkn>
\o/ git \o/
16:37
< Syka>
i like how git's manual calls it the 'stupid content tracker'
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17:10
<@iospace>
Seg faults? In my builds? It's more likely than you think T_T
17:12 * Tamber sprinkles some caterpillars in iospace's build.
17:12
<@iospace>
T_T
17:13 * Syka invents vertical-endianness
17:13
<@iospace>
how about no
17:14
< Syka>
:D
17:16
<@iospace>
http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m7g8rjJ2r51rzupqxo1_500.png
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18:46
<&Derakon>
Ahh, that was nicely straightforward to fix.
18:48
<&Derakon>
Always nice when a problem is readily amenable to examination.
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--- Log closed Fri May 31 19:27:11 2013
--- Log opened Fri May 31 19:33:57 2013
19:33 TheWatcher [chris@Nightstar-3762b576.co.uk] has joined #code
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20:46 Wires is now known as AnnoDomini
20:52 Kindamoody|out is now known as Kindamoody
21:03
<@iospace>
ohgodsanymomentnow
21:24
<@Azash>
Looks like many moments
21:34
<@celticminstrel>
?
21:38 Kindamoody is now known as Kindamoody[zZz]
21:48
<@Azash>
celticminstrel: Joking about the comment on "any moment now" without further explanation
21:49
<@Tamber>
I think it's that interview with Gargle, unless I'm imagining things.
22:17 * Azash has an idea for his oregon trail bot
22:17
<@Azash>
Obviously the hunting game can't be done talking to an IRC bot
22:18
<@Azash>
So I'm thinking having it ask an equation and how quickly you answer affecting the food you manage to get
22:20
<&McMartin>
Azash: Hm. The original was "echo this line quickly"
22:20
<&McMartin>
That could be timed too
22:20
<@Azash>
In IRC that's easy, at least in eg. putty+irssi
22:20
<@Azash>
Just paint the line and paste it back in
22:28
<@Azash>
McMartin: Slight question about BASIC
22:29
<@Alek>
There was also a version where you had to type in shooting words to hunt. the faster, the better.
22:29
<@Azash>
The game asks you to choose how good you are at something on a scale 1-5
22:29
<@Alek>
bang, etc.
22:29
<@Azash>
Then it's "PRINT D9", D9 being the variable for it
22:29
<@Azash>
And follows up with "IF D95 ..."
22:29
<@Azash>
What does it mean when they add the 5 on the end?
22:46 * Azash works sed to replace variables for explanatory names throughout code
23:04
<&McMartin>
I found at least one typo in their code already
23:05
<&McMartin>
That said: some BASICs (including Commodore BASIC, but not GW-BASIC) restricted variable names to two characters and a type glyph
23:05
<&McMartin>
So AR$ and ARRRRRRR$ and ARGYLE$ and ARGH$ were all the same (string) variable.
23:06
<@Azash>
Hm
23:07
<@Azash>
Well, I'm making some advances in sane-itizing this~
23:07
<&McMartin>
Study the logic, and see if it makes sense, I think~
23:07
<&McMartin>
If there are no other rrferences to D95 in the code, probably a type
23:07
<&McMartin>
typo
23:07
<@Azash>
Well, it's more that I'm not used to BASIC programming
23:08
<&McMartin>
There was a place later on where the line numbers go out of order by an order of magnitude, and I think they fat-fingered 5 there too =P
23:08
<@Azash>
Something like "if (stuff) then 790" is just annoying to me
23:08
<@Azash>
Yeah I laughed at that
23:08
<@Azash>
6430, 64540, 6450
23:09
<@Azash>
Cough, I did goof a bit with the sedding
23:09
<@Azash>
5090 PRINT "YOU CAN'CASH_LEFT_AFTER_INIT AFFORD ANIMAL_SPENDING DOCTOR"
23:10 * TheWatcher ponders "MuggleBytes", a measure used for areas of memory that are guaranteed to be free of magic numbers.
23:12 * McMartin gestures dramatically. "Make it so"
23:23
<&McMartin>
Azash: Note that there were a bunch of BASIC dialects, and this was specifically for some mainframe variant that might have quirks
23:23
<&McMartin>
So some of it will require guessing
23:23
<&McMartin>
Note that "if (stuff) then (number)" is "then GOTO (number)"
23:24
<&McMartin>
Also note that I'm waiting impatiently for [R] to get to the point where he learns about tail call optimization in Scheme so I can break out the "how to represent BASIC style, complete with line numbers, with nothing but function calls - yes, not even any variable assignments"
23:24
<&McMartin>
It is the finest of Horribly Perverse Things (though it's syntactically cleaner in Haskell)
23:25
<@Azash>
I'm trying to figure out this line
23:25
<@Azash>
It has a bunch of variables multiplied equals 0
23:25
<@Azash>
Like.. A*B*C=0
23:25
<&McMartin>
Oh man
23:26
<&McMartin>
That's "AND" without the AND.
23:26
<&McMartin>
A, B, and C are being used as booleans, but BASIC doesn't have those, it has numbers
23:26
<@Azash>
And the =0 ?
23:26
<&McMartin>
So you set them to 0 (false) and either 1 or -1 depending on dialect (true).
23:26
<&McMartin>
If they can only be zero or one, then A*B*C=1 if and only if all of them are 1.
23:26
<@Azash>
Ah.. So it ends up being either zero or nonzero
23:26
<@Azash>
Right
23:26
<&McMartin>
So A*B*C=0 if any of them are 0.
23:26
<&McMartin>
(For OR, you'd use +.)
23:27
<@Azash>
So what does the line actually do?
23:27
<@Azash>
I mean it only has that and-and-equals-zero and nothing else
23:27
<&McMartin>
o_O
23:28
<&McMartin>
That I don't know offhand.
23:28
<&McMartin>
I'm used to IF _____ requiring a THEN
23:28
<&McMartin>
Does this dialect have FI or END IF statements later on?
23:28
<@Azash>
820 K8*S4*F1*F2*M*M9*D3=0
23:28
<&McMartin>
Wait, it's *not* an IF
23:28
<&McMartin>
That line is unfamiliar to me.
23:29
<&McMartin>
Would it make sense in context that it was assigning 0 to all those variables individually?
23:29
<@Azash>
And the line above it is
23:29
<@Azash>
810 X1*-1
23:29
<@Azash>
Yeah it would
23:29
<@Azash>
The "sane" version of it is
23:29
<&McMartin>
Would X1*-1 be "X1 = -X1"?
23:29
<@Azash>
820 K8*ILLNESS_FLAG*CLEAR_SOUTH_PASS_FLAG*CLEAR_BLUE_MOUNTAINS_FLAG*TOTAL_MILEAGE*CL EAR_SOUTH_PASS_FLAG*TURN_NUMBER_FOR_DATE_SET=0
23:29 * McMartin nods
23:30
<@Azash>
And well, the first one
23:30
<@Azash>
Is the fort flag
23:30
<&McMartin>
X1 *= -1, maybe?
23:30
<@Azash>
So I guess it's set to true because you're in the start location shopping
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23:31
<@Azash>
I mean, that would make sense
23:31
<@Azash>
Of course I don't know what the fort flag *does* because all the documentation on it is 6790 REM X1 = FLAG FOR FORT OPTION
23:39
<&McMartin>
I'm guessing that anything that isn't 0 is true.
23:39
<@Azash>
Yeah, they use -1 though apparently
23:40 * McMartin nods
23:40
<&McMartin>
It's sensible; it's ~0
23:44 * Azash has his first encounter with "on X goto a,b,c", wonders if he still has his whisky somewhere
23:44
<&McMartin>
Oh man
23:44
<&McMartin>
That's a switch
23:44
<&McMartin>
but the cases are 1, 2, 3 etc
23:44
<@Azash>
Yeah
23:45
<&McMartin>
Even cooler than that is on X gosub
23:45
<&McMartin>
Because that is secretly a *C++ method call*
23:56
<@Azash>
What
23:56
<&McMartin>
The way virtual method calls in C++ work under the hood is "look up a table of subroutine locations and index into it based on the method identifier"
23:56
<&McMartin>
The "vtable"
23:57
<&McMartin>
on X gosub A, B, C is basically "A, B, C is your vetable, X is your method name"
23:57
<@Azash>
Similar principle to interrupt vectors?
23:57
<&McMartin>
I think so
23:58
<@Azash>
Right, got it
23:58
<&McMartin>
Those are better, really, as an analogy
23:58
<&McMartin>
Because vtables are carried with the object, and subclassing means that the vtable points to different places but is laid out identically, a trick you can't get from ON X GOSUB unless you put in additional machinery
23:59
<@Azash>
Right, I think I get it
--- Log closed Sat Jun 01 00:00:53 2013
code logs -> 2013 -> Fri, 31 May 2013< code.20130530.log - code.20130601.log >

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