| --- Log opened Wed May 29 00:00:50 2013 |
| 00:01 | <@celticminstrel> | I still don't know why this doesn't work though... Google isn't being very helpful... |
| 00:02 | <@celticminstrel> | It says I should use jQuery's .focus(), but that does not appear to do anything. |
| 00:02 | | * TheWatcher eyes |
| 00:03 | <&McMartin> | Anybody using a version of IE earlier than 9 kind of deserves everything they get anyhow |
| 00:03 | <@TheWatcher> | I randomly note that, if you end up doing anything with IE below 9 at all, the most useful think you can use is the Noo Sans Tool library. |
| 00:04 | <@TheWatcher> | *thing |
| 00:04 | < RichyB> | McMartin: namely, a government job with crappy pay but a decent pension? |
| 00:04 | < RichyB> | Though I've deliberately put cause and effect the wrong way around there. |
| 00:04 | <&McMartin> | They shouldn't be using your web apps anyway~ |
| 00:04 | < RichyB> | Er |
| 00:05 | <&McMartin> | I base my statement on the consumer space, though, yeah |
| 00:05 | <&McMartin> | Since IE9 was the one where MS required people to opt out of autoupgrades, IIRC |
| 00:05 | < RichyB> | We'd have severe cashflow problems if governmenty people stopped using our web apps~ |
| 00:05 | <&McMartin> | Heh |
| 00:05 | <&McMartin> | Well Then (tm) |
| 00:05 | <@celticminstrel> | :( |
| 00:06 | < RichyB> | McMartin: http://www.delib.net/dblog/browser-stats-roundup-could-uk-government-finally-be- rid-of-ie6/ <- my company's blog. |
| 00:07 | < RichyB> | Check out the proportion on IE7! |
| 00:07 | < RichyB> | Yes, we still support that. |
| 00:07 | < RichyB> | It's only this year that we finally shuffled IE6 support off, IIRC. |
| 00:09 | <@TheWatcher> | I'm very glad that I was given free rein to tell people that, if they tried using anything below IE9, they did so at their own risk >.> |
| 00:10 | <@celticminstrel> | According to API docs, .focus() is the correct way to do it, so why does it not work... |
| 00:10 | <&McMartin> | You're at a University! |
| 00:10 | < RichyB> | (It'll definitely still work fine... definitely work fine if you turn JS off... but it's now at the same support status as, say, lynx.) |
| 00:10 | <&McMartin> | You get to operate in Glorious Future Year 2013! |
| 00:10 | <@celticminstrel> | Though it does say it shouldn't be used on hidden elements, but I'm not doing that anymore. |
| 00:11 | <@TheWatcher> | celticminstrel: no errors in the javascript console? |
| 00:11 | <@celticminstrel> | Nope. |
| 00:11 | <@TheWatcher> | McMartin: They are just moving the admin staff off XP systems to Win7 |
| 00:15 | | You're now known as TheWatcher[T-2] |
| 00:15 | <@Reiv> | Silly McMartin, you're assuming that they've got money to keep up to date~ |
| 00:15 | <@Reiv> | And my company has decided it's going to Not Bother with Win8 - we upgraded to Win7 this year. |
| 00:15 | <&McMartin> | At least in the US, IE9 was forced upon the populace against its will~ |
| 00:15 | <&McMartin> | Win8 can go hang, your company is entirely in the right |
| 00:15 | <@Reiv> | How'd it manage that |
| 00:16 | <&McMartin> | By surruptitiously overriding "do not update automatically" unless you went out of your way to re-disable it and then re-disable it again specifically for IE |
| 00:16 | <@TheWatcher[T-2]> | Reiv: S'funny, that. |
| 00:16 | <@Reiv> | huh, cute |
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| 00:16 | <@Reiv> | Was there much Screaming and Gnashing of Teeth? |
| 00:17 | <&McMartin> | These are people who use IE at home. I bet 85% of them didn't even notice an upgrade had occurred |
| 00:17 | <@celticminstrel> | ...oh. It seems the failure is a direct result of invoking it from the console. :/ |
| 00:17 | <@TheWatcher[T-2]> | We apparently have some bugfuck insane amount to spend on closing down the UMIST campus and building a new one, but we don't have enough money for shit that actually matters >.> |
| 00:17 | <@TheWatcher[T-2]> | The wonderful world of Finance. Which, I note, has nothing whatsoever to do with the world we actually inhabit |
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| 00:25 | | * ToxicFrog resyncs, pauses briefly to be thankful that his job does not involve supporting IE |
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| 02:10 | | * Vornicus examines C++, fiddles with where he should be using references and where pointers. |
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| 02:12 | <&ToxicFrog> | :spiders: |
| 02:12 | <~Vornicus> | Well yes. |
| 02:16 | <&Derakon> | Use references for passing function arguments around; use pointers elsewhere~ |
| 02:17 | <~Vornicus> | that is approximately the advice I had condensed so far. |
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| 06:47 | | * Vornicus fiddles with initializer lists. |
| 06:49 | <~Vornicus> | This is one part of C++ I never really got around to figuring out properly. |
| 06:50 | < [R]> | It's basically like calling a function that's actually a variable except you call it between the closing paren of the argument list and the opening brace of the function body. |
| 06:51 | < [R]> | Supposedly does something slightly different than assigning the variables in the constructor. |
| 06:52 | <~Vornicus> | From what I can tell, the initializer list overrides the default construction given in the member declarations. |
| 06:53 | <~Vornicus> | Which means among other things I can use it on const members, and I avoid multiple calls to constructors. |
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| 08:52 | <~Vornicus> | It compiles, holy shit |
| 08:52 | | * Vornicus shakes his head. |
| 08:54 | <~Vornicus> | Okay. Now to really get going on this. |
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| 12:47 | | * TheWatcher looks into what's involved in setting up a rails server |
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| 14:49 | | * celticminstrel ponders the question of how to determine whether a fireball can reach a tile. |
| 14:49 | <@celticminstrel> | ^fireball explosion |
| 14:51 | <@Azash> | celticminstrel: D&D or what? |
| 14:51 | <@celticminstrel> | No, this rogue-like. |
| 14:52 | <@celticminstrel> | I could reuse the FOV code, but I feel like they should bend around corners a little more than that would do... |
| 14:52 | <@gnolam> | Floodfill. |
| 14:54 | <@celticminstrel> | That sounds closer... though, then it'd bend around to the other side of one-tile-thick walls... |
| 14:54 | <@celticminstrel> | Maybe I'm just being silly. >_> |
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| 16:14 | <@celticminstrel> | So, I decided to try using the FOV code... it makes the explosion non-square, but I think I can live with that. |
| 17:54 | <@sshine> | FOV = Field of View? |
| 17:55 | <@sshine> | celticminstrel, how about a floodfill where bending costs more? |
| 17:56 | <@celticminstrel> | I dunno how that would work... |
| 17:58 | < [R]> | Have the floodfill work like pathfinding with two limits: absolute limit and stretch limit. The absolute limit is the distance from the source without obstructions, stretch limit is the distance moved. Have the stretch limit 125%->150% of the absolute limit. |
| 17:58 | <@sshine> | how about a FOV + derivates (e.g. find where FOV would hit, and extend it logarithmically |
| 18:01 | <@sshine> | [R], sounds like max(FOV, floodfill), but where floodfill isn't as intense. |
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| 18:46 | < AnnoDomini> | Whose turn now? |
| 18:49 | < [R]> | http://i.imgur.com/j6Gj1aU.jpg <-- Magnicruel's |
| 18:49 | | * Alek snerks. |
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| 19:41 | | * Alek snerks at Nero Burning Rom |
| 19:41 | <@Alek> | Can only write at 40x (6,000 KB/s) instead of 436.9x (65,535 KB/s) to current disc. |
| 19:45 | < [R]> | Hey, there's a scheme to JS compiler |
| 19:53 | < [R]> | ... what scheme interpreter/compiler should I use? |
| 19:54 | <&ToxicFrog|W`rkn> | For compiling release stuff I hear Gambit rocks a million faces. |
| 19:54 | < [R]> | Don't see it in the list. Right now I'm using guile, seems to be better that bigloo for following the tutorial |
| 19:56 | < [R]> | Ah, found it |
| 19:56 | <&ToxicFrog|W`rkn> | Guile is the GNU standard Scheme implementation. Gambit is a Scheme->C compiler. |
| 19:57 | <&ToxicFrog|W`rkn> | For learning, Racket (formerly PLT Scheme) is probably the best bet, as it has a decent IDE and can be switched between a bunch of different modes depending on what kind of scheme the book/tutorial expects. |
| 19:57 | | * [R] doesn't like IDEs. Something with a nice REPL would be appreciated more. |
| 19:58 | <&McMartin> | Gambit's got a decent but not face-rocking REPL |
| 19:58 | <&ToxicFrog|W`rkn> | [R]: this is Scheme we're talking about, if it doesn't have a REPL it doesn't count as an IDE |
| 19:59 | | * iospace pokes ToxicFrog|W`rkn |
| 19:59 | <@iospace> | you work at google, right? |
| 19:59 | < [R]> | How do I call gambit. |
| 19:59 | <&McMartin> | gsi for a repl, gsc for compilation |
| 20:00 | <&ToxicFrog|W`rkn> | If it didn't have a good REPL, I wouldn't have described it as having "a decent IDE"; give it a try. |
| 20:00 | < [R]> | By IDE you mean something that's going to launch a graphical program? |
| 20:00 | <&ToxicFrog|W`rkn> | (specifically, it's split-screen REPL and editor, with debugging and documentation across both and tools for running editor code in the REPL or saving REPL code to the editor) |
| 20:00 | < [R]> | IE: not terminal |
| 20:00 | <&ToxicFrog|W`rkn> | Yes, it's an X progarm. |
| 20:00 | <&ToxicFrog|W`rkn> | Program, even. |
| 20:00 | <&ToxicFrog|W`rkn> | iospace: yes. |
| 20:00 | < [R]> | I'll keep it in mind for now. |
| 20:01 | <@iospace> | ToxicFrog|W`rkn: i have a phone interview with them coming up ._. |
| 20:01 | <&McMartin> | My vague experience with gsi though was that it didn't have readline support |
| 20:01 | < [R]> | Yes, gsi has readline-like features |
| 20:01 | <&McMartin> | Oh, that's good then |
| 20:01 | < [R]> | bigloo and guile didn't |
| 20:02 | <&McMartin> | Man, guile doesn't? Harsh |
| 20:02 | <&ToxicFrog|W`rkn> | iospace: awesome! Good luck! (which office?) |
| 20:02 | <@iospace> | Madison, WI |
| 20:02 | <@iospace> | and thanks |
| 20:03 | | * [R] is also rocking an oldish version of Fedora Core ATM (it has FF 3.6) |
| 20:04 | <&McMartin> | Wow |
| 20:04 | <&McMartin> | Is it old enough to still be called Fedora Core? |
| 20:04 | <&McMartin> | I thought they dropped that at like 8 |
| 20:05 | < [R]> | $ cat /etc/issue |
| 20:05 | < [R]> | Fedora release 14 (Laughlin) |
| 20:05 | < [R]> | No |
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| 20:10 | < [R]> | Why would you use a cons instead of a vector? |
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| 20:14 | <&McMartin> | Vectors don't resize as easily and as a result don't filter as well |
| 20:15 | <&McMartin> | (Also, cons cells came first, as they were directly representable on the mainframe LISP 1.5 was developed for) |
| 20:15 | < [R]> | Ah |
| 20:21 | <&ToxicFrog|W`rkn> | iospace: did you have specific questions, or just a heads up? |
| 20:21 | <@iospace> | ToxicFrog|W`rkn: just a heads up :P |
| 20:22 | <&ToxicFrog|W`rkn> | (FWIW, I didn't really enjoy the phone interview and felt I did rather badly at it, but they still liked me enough to bring me in for the in person interviews, which were super fun) |
| 20:22 | <&McMartin> | (Scheme uses the names "first" and "rest" to access cons cells, but the traditional names are CAR and CDR, which were Contents of {Address|Decrement} part of Register) |
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| 21:00 | <&McMartin> | [R]: Incidentally, does the tutorial you're using go into continuations? |
| 21:00 | < [R]> | Not sure, I switched because that one was being weird |
| 21:00 | <&McMartin> | Scheme is one of the only languages with first-class continuations, and as a result they're treated kind of like black magic (indeed, call-with-current-continuation is often instead expanded call-with-cthulhu-invocation) |
| 21:00 | < [R]> | http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/dorai/t-y-scheme/t-y-scheme-Z-H-5.html#node_sec_3.1 <-- stopped there. |
| 21:01 | < [R]> | http://www.scheme.com/tspl4/ <-- got through most of Ch2 |
| 21:01 | <&McMartin> | But (a) they don't seem to be *that* bad and (b) I've encountered two entirely different mechanisms for exploring them with respect to modern CS |
| 21:01 | <&McMartin> | So I'll be curious if there are others |
| 21:01 | <&McMartin> | (one treats them as super-exceptions, the other as super-setjmp/longjmp) |
| 21:02 | <&McMartin> | Tsk |
| 21:02 | <&McMartin> | Yeah, that one's going to be weird because it's introducing set! early on |
| 21:02 | <&McMartin> | Scheme generally has a bias against set!, compared to Common LISP |
| 21:02 | < [R]> | Which one? |
| 21:02 | <&McMartin> | The one you gave up on |
| 21:03 | < [R]> | Ah |
| 21:03 | <&McMartin> | I thought of something else re: cons vs. vector |
| 21:03 | < [R]> | Yeah, Wikipedia suggested that one |
| 21:03 | <&McMartin> | Efficient immutable vectors were kind of late to the party; I think really good ones are less than 20 years old |
| 21:03 | <&McMartin> | But you can get a pretty astounding amount of mileage out of the dynamically typed singly linked lists that cons cells represent |
| 21:04 | <&McMartin> | (This means that more modern immutable-focused languages - Clojure in particular - push immutable vectors and maps harder.) |
| 21:05 | <&McMartin> | Ow |
| 21:05 | <&McMartin> | OK, the second one's description of continuations is Not Great |
| 21:06 | <&McMartin> | But I should be able to help out with the "nonlocal exit" example, and then expand it out to "the best way to do what are basically for loops" |
| 21:07 | <&McMartin> | Since I don't see named let in here as a super-easy thing |
| 21:07 | <&McMartin> | This is using the super-exception model, though. |
| 21:07 | | * [R] has paused to let what he did learn sink in |
| 21:07 | <&McMartin> | A good move |
| 21:08 | < [R]> | Since this is super-alien |
| 21:08 | | * McMartin nods |
| 21:08 | <&McMartin> | Like I was kinda saying before |
| 21:08 | <&McMartin> | One learns scheme for the experience of grappling with something alien yet extremely powerful |
| 21:09 | <&McMartin> | The closest language to Scheme I'd consider production-capable is Clojure, but Clojure nerfs a lot of the super-powerful things but gives you a broader array of primitives to work with. |
| 21:11 | <&McMartin> | Though that is slightly cheating - I learned about Gambit in the first place because a video game I liked was written in it~ |
| 21:15 | <&ToxicFrog|W`rkn> | Which game? |
| 21:18 | <@TheWatcher> | Quantz, I believe |
| 21:19 | <@TheWatcher> | (McM got me hooked on it for a while) |
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| 21:23 | <@iospace> | https://github.com/joho/7XX-rfc PFFFFFFFFFT |
| 21:24 | <@Tamber> | hee |
| 21:25 | <@Tamber> | 732 :D |
| 21:26 | | * TheWatcher bookmarks for reasons |
| 21:27 | <@iospace> | :D |
| 21:28 | <@iospace> | 727 got me |
| 21:28 | <@iospace> | given i'm a low level programmer :P |
| 21:29 | <@Tamber> | Ahh, 737. |
| 21:31 | <@celticminstrel> | What's PG in 794? |
| 21:32 | <&McMartin> | Yeah, Quantz. |
| 21:33 | <&McMartin> | It's the only match-N game that is both (a) not a Bejeweled clone and (b) that I liked |
| 21:34 | <&McMartin> | Also, I just remembered that I have a kind of neat implementation of functional queues floating around (though only kind of neat; I think Clojure's is better) |
| 21:34 | <&McMartin> | 719 :D |
| 21:34 | < [R]> | https://www.google.ca/search?q=Quantz+game&safe=off&client=firefox-a&hs=SrT&rls= org.mozilla:en-US:official&channel=fflb&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=N2amU aKkN6iOigL4nYCwBA&ved=0CEIQsAQ&biw=1276&bih=624 <-- that? |
| 21:35 | <&McMartin> | Yeah. |
| 21:37 | <@celticminstrel> | I don't think that answers my question. >_> |
| 21:37 | <&McMartin> | It doesn't, indeed, it answers an entirely different question |
| 21:37 | <&McMartin> | As to your question, I dunno |
| 21:37 | <&McMartin> | Er, I mean |
| 21:38 | <&McMartin> | The answer you seek is, itself, an answer, containing the information you seek |
| 21:38 | <@celticminstrel> | Heh. |
| 21:39 | <&McMartin> | Works as "PM got a REPL" though~ |
| 21:41 | <&McMartin> | The tautological answer was actually funnier in context when I had misread it |
| 21:41 | | * McMartin had first read it as "An excellent question. The question is, in itself, an answer, containing the information you seek. And more!" |
| 21:41 | <&McMartin> | To which the entirely accurate reply would have been "That's right. I asked a multiple choice question. So, which part was the answer?" |
| 21:42 | | * TheWatcher is becoming vaguely tempted to ask McM whether g++ has the buddha nature or not |
| 21:43 | <&McMartin> | That is more or less how you got into the question - it was a "bait the Pkunk" option in Star Control 2 |
| 21:43 | | himi [fow035@0C0840.B22E58.E3471A.E028A1] has quit [Ping timeout: 121 seconds] |
| 21:46 | <&McMartin> | TheWatcher: That said, "Yeah, g++ became fully standards-compliant, and had widely deployed vesions that were compliant *enough*, around the mid-to-late 200Xs" |
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| --- Log closed Thu May 30 00:00:05 2013 |