code logs -> 2013 -> Tue, 07 May 2013< code.20130506.log - code.20130508.log >
--- Log opened Tue May 07 00:00:02 2013
00:42
< RichyB>
Oh interesting.
00:42
< RichyB>
I'd heard of SDN before but latched onto possibly the wrong part.
00:44
< RichyB>
I thought the interesting bit was the fact that switches query the controller on-demand once per flow per switch and then cache the routing decision given to them by the controller.
00:44
< RichyB>
...so that you can have routing (which *really* needs to be *fast*) decisions made by usually-quite-slow software.
00:45
< RichyB>
The things that you can actually do with that, like centralising the controller and making decisions with global knowledge are new ideas to me. :3
00:50
<&McMartin>
A lot of bad ideas grow into good ideas. This stuff is well outside my domain of expertise
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01:46 * Alek reads a legend about an old PC game from the makers of Prince of Persia. Karateka.
01:47
<@Alek>
apparently, it was released on a 2-sided disk. But could fit, in its entirety, on one side.
01:47
<@Alek>
so they put the same game on the other side. with one little change.
01:48
<@Alek>
there were a lot of calls to tech support complaining about a vertically-flipped display, being told to flip the disk over.
01:48
<@Tamber>
Ha!
02:15
<&McMartin>
Nice
02:15
<&McMartin>
That seems like the kind of thing they'd do
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03:16
< Arsonist>
I've tried passing -static to my compiler but I keep getting libcurl.dll not found when running my output exe. I'm new to C/C++ but I thought I had the linking set up properly
03:17
<&McMartin>
-static is not quite that thing. Are you using a gcc-based system or are you using MSVS?
03:19
< Arsonist>
McMartin, I'm using mingw32
03:20
<&McMartin>
Hrm.
03:20
<&McMartin>
I don't have a good answer offhand, then.
03:20
<&ToxicFrog>
McMartin: the man page for -static implies that it should either link against libcurl.a or fail at link time
03:20
<&McMartin>
Right; the equivalent in MSVS is "statically link libc, but other things can do whatever"
03:22
< Arsonist>
This is confusing for a new person :-(
03:22
<&ToxicFrog>
There's a -static-libc or similar for that, I think
03:22
<&McMartin>
Arsonist: Yeah =(
03:22
<&McMartin>
Is this your first serious foray into coding or do you have background in other non-C languages?
03:22
< Arsonist>
I see -static-libgcc on the manpage
03:23
< Arsonist>
McMartin, I have a background in other areas
03:23
<&McMartin>
One thing that comes to mind is that argument order may matter - but if you don't have a libcurl.a to link in that won't help you
03:23
<&ToxicFrog>
I wonder if there's some kind of import library douchebaggery going on
03:23
< Arsonist>
primarily python for my day job
03:23
<&McMartin>
'k
03:23
<&ToxicFrog>
Like libcurl.a is actually an import library for libcurl.dll
03:23
<&ToxicFrog>
Or, yeah, it could be argument order, which is actually hugely significant with gcc
03:23
<&McMartin>
ToxicFrog: Import Libraries are specific to MSVS, not COFF, though. mingw-gcc should not require it.
03:24
<&McMartin>
It's smart enough to generate code on its own to do that stuff
03:24
<&ToxicFrog>
McMartin: it doesn't require it but I think if you somehow end up with them it will understand them
03:24
<&McMartin>
Well, yes, if only because they're Just Code
03:24
<&McMartin>
code with dlopen() in it
03:24
<&ToxicFrog>
Which can happen if you've downloaded a .lib/.dll or .a/.dll combo intended for use from MSVS
03:25
<&McMartin>
MSVS oughta be Only .lib/.dll though, and mingw should be Just The DLL
03:25
<&McMartin>
At least IME
03:25
<&ToxicFrog>
There are a lot of people who don't actually know how to package libraries for release and yet nonetheless do so~
03:25
<&McMartin>
I cannot gainsay that~
03:26
<&McMartin>
Argument order would be my first guess at a culprit, and it's invariably horribly documented
03:26
<&McMartin>
... hrm.
03:27
<&McMartin>
I now forget if you need to have the .dll as an argument to the linker.
03:27
<&McMartin>
Also, I guess there's also the sanity check
03:27
<&ToxicFrog>
Arsonist: tbqh the easiest approach may be to accept the DLLs as a dependency, if you are permitted to distribute them with the executable; windows uses $PATH as the DLL search path and includes . in it by default, so as long as the exe and dlls are in the same dir there's no setup needed.
03:27
<&McMartin>
Is libcurl.dll actually in .... yeah, that
03:27
<&McMartin>
libcurl is, IIRC, PNG-licensed
03:27
<&ToxicFrog>
You can also, yes, experiment with argument order, or don't use -lfoo and instead pass libfoo.a itself as an argument to the linker
03:27
<&ToxicFrog>
Which should guarantee it links the static version or dies trying
03:28
< Arsonist>
hmm... alright. I hate to hack around in my first steps of learning though. I'll try those options though
03:28
<&ToxicFrog>
Welcome to C~
03:28
< Arsonist>
heh, just as I thought I was liking it :P
03:29
<&ToxicFrog>
Everyone thinks they do at first
03:29
<&ToxicFrog>
Then they start pining for things like non-terrible build systems and first class functions and a useful type system and closures and memory safety
03:30
<&McMartin>
Exceptions, arrays that carry their own sizes...
03:31
< Arsonist>
do you at least feel comfortable with the linking stuff at some point? Like if you were in my position would you feel confident solving it?
03:32
<&McMartin>
Yeah, probably, but I would be reduced to experimentation pretty fast.
03:32
<&McMartin>
(I have in fact mixed C++ and libcurl professionally in the past)
03:32
<&ToxicFrog>
Arsonist: what McM said, although I'd also be complicated by not having to deal with generating windows builds of stuff in ages
03:33
<&ToxicFrog>
One of the reasons I don't miss C is that using modern languages means I no longer need to worry about the incantations needed to get my shit to compile, link, and run on windows
03:33
<&ToxicFrog>
Well, unless I'm targeting the JVM~
03:34
<&McMartin>
Just running, then~
03:34
<&ToxicFrog>
Yeah, you wouldn't think "launch the installed JVM with this jar file" would be nearly as hard as it is
03:35
<&McMartin>
Sometimes it's great~
03:36
< Arsonist>
What alternative do you use for windows programming? I'd like to learn something low-level just to stretch my brain a bit, but also would like something portable that lets me just run my executable without any dependency fuss
03:37
<&ToxicFrog>
ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
03:37
< Arsonist>
:(
03:37
<&McMartin>
Those are kind of counter to each other, as goals
03:37
< Arsonist>
ah
03:37
<&McMartin>
For the first, C/C++ is more or less the way to go
03:37
<&McMartin>
For the latter, Python is unusually good at this
03:37
<&ToxicFrog>
I don't know of anything that satisfies those two requirements. Rust and D were both attempts at that, I think, but D at least has proven to be an even worse option
03:37
<&ToxicFrog>
Not sure about Rust
03:38
< Arsonist>
yeah, I just hate how I can't really package python for windows. I guess I could try the py2exe route again, but I always assumed it didn't work well
03:38
<&ToxicFrog>
Historically, when targeting windows with C/++, I used a mingw-based linux-hosted cross compiler
03:38
<&ToxicFrog>
(i don't recommend this but it's better than the alternatives)
03:38
<&McMartin>
C++ with the Boost libraries is as close as I've ever gotten to run-anywhere single-source low-level code.
03:39
<&ToxicFrog>
These days I either use scala or clojure and generate an uberjar, or I use lua and use enceladus to combine it with someone else's lua*.dll
03:39
<&McMartin>
With what you've got so far, "have libcurl.dll in your .exe's path" ought to be the fastest fix.
03:39
<&ToxicFrog>
(which still requires a bit of cross compiler wrangling, but it's something I can do once and then re-use for multiple projects)
03:39
<&ToxicFrog>
I have heard that py2exe actually works rather well, but haven't used it myseld
03:40
< Arsonist>
thanks for the help, this channel rocks
03:40
<&McMartin>
ToxicFrog: Only sorta
03:40
<&ToxicFrog>
(clojure's "lein uberjar" is actually really nice; it computes the transitive closure of all of your program's dependencies and packs all of them, along with the program itself and its resources, into a single jar file)
03:40
<&McMartin>
There are things I often want out of it that it can't reliably do
03:40
<&McMartin>
Ophis uses py2exe
03:41
<&McMartin>
I was really hoping to be able to ship it as a single file that could be stuck on a USB stick and run there, but it has a big pile of support resources it needs in its directory and subdirectories
03:41
<&McMartin>
There's a mode to make it do this, but the authors admit it doesn't actually work
03:41
<&ToxicFrog>
(AFAICT this works wonderfully as long as you never want to deploy a command line jar-based program on windows, at which point You Are Entering A World Of Pain)
03:41
<&McMartin>
Yeah
03:42
<&McMartin>
If you're writing a Swing-based program, the .jar distribution on Windows is basically automatic.
03:42
<&McMartin>
Otherwise, Pain And Suffering Ahoy
03:42
<&ToxicFrog>
The best part is that apparently the Java install on Durandal was done from one of the installers that actually does not completely screw up, so the first time I did this it worked perfectly in testing
03:42
<&ToxicFrog>
Then I released it
03:43
<&ToxicFrog>
and now I have a 50 line .bat file to try to figure out how to launch the goddamn jar and it still fails for some people in ways no-one can figure out
03:44
<&McMartin>
That is, sadly, not unique to Windows >_<
03:44
<&McMartin>
Eclipse's launching shell-script is pretty obtuse, or was the last time I checked
03:44
< Arsonist>
what are your thoughts on go?
03:44
<&ToxicFrog>
This has not, historically, been a problem on linux, where you can generally trust that java(1) is in $PATH
03:45
<&ToxicFrog>
At least, I have yet to get any bug reports stemming from it not being there~
03:46
<&McMartin>
Go has some fun ideas, but as an outsider I still consider it something of a toy language until it starts seeing serious use outside of Google itself
03:46
<&ToxicFrog>
This is not something you can assume on windows, nor can you assume that any of %JAVA%, %JRE%, %JDK%, or their _BIN variants are set correctly (or at all), even with a supposedly correctly functioning Java install.
03:46
<&ToxicFrog>
Arsonist: I haven't really used it, but from what I've seen it does some neat stuff but nothing that makes it a compelling choice for me over, say, Scala.
03:48
<&McMartin>
I wrote a small program in it for tearing apart Ultima IV savefiles shortly after it came out
03:49
<&McMartin>
https://hkn.eecs.berkeley.edu/~mcmartin/go/u4scan.go
03:51
<&McMartin>
IIRC my reaction was "I'd rather use OCaml"
03:52
<&McMartin>
Speaking of, I should recode this in OCaml for spite~
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06:32
< Xon>
<McMartin> COM is an attempted solution to a problem with no good solutions >_<
06:32
< Xon>
it's really useful for binary interfaces which never change while permitting querying for new interfaces
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07:14
<&McMartin>
Xon: Yeah. It's also an ABI that's at C++ levels of richness instead of Pascal levels of richness, which is good too
07:14
<&McMartin>
And the alternatives tend to be things like XML-SOAP >_<
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13:42
<&ToxicFrog>
16
13:43
<@froztbyte>
McMartin: ah
13:43
<@froztbyte>
McMartin: well, there's probably a couple of interesting things that'll happen
13:43
<@froztbyte>
one of the ones I wonder about is dynamic "pooling" and isolation of network resources in corporate environments
13:44
<@froztbyte>
so that it can have some degree of self-organization, based on a set of requirements defined in policy somewhere
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13:49
< Xon>
froztbyte, the only real tricky part about COM is the registration crap and if you need to manually handle reference counting =p Conceptually it is just a virtual method table with the 1st three methods always defined (addref, removeref & query interface)
13:50
< Xon>
DCOM (Distributed COM), now that is where there is some fucking voodoo
13:51
<@froztbyte>
Xon: eh, I'm not too concerned
13:52
<@froztbyte>
the only part I found interesting was on just how much momentum microsoft is actually running
13:52
<@froztbyte>
makes me wonder what they might do in the near future
13:52
<@froztbyte>
(if someone can take the reins and be smart)
13:52
< Xon>
heh
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14:52
< Syk_>
fucking router
14:52 * Syk_ sets it on fire
14:53
< Syk_>
how hard is it to make a little internet box
14:53
< Syk_>
that stays online for more than 12 hours
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15:28
<&ToxicFrog>
Syk_: well, if you ask the router manufacturers, quite difficult~
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15:52
< RichyB>
It mystifies me that consumer router manufacturers manage to get the thermal designs so wrong so often, though.
15:53
< RichyB>
We're talking, like, 500MHz ARM chips that you don't normally need fans on in most devices, but they still overheat.
15:53
<&ToxicFrog|W`rkn>
They get everything else wrong with regularity, why not that?
15:58
< RichyB>
Touch?.
16:03
< Xon>
RichyB, you are talking about people who think the best solution to an overflowing NAT table is to scribble over memory. What the hell did you expect?
16:05
<&ToxicFrog|W`rkn>
Fuck C++ forever @.@
16:05
<&ToxicFrog|W`rkn>
Problem: I used ->experiment_log() (which doesn't exist) instead of ->debug_log()
16:06
<&ToxicFrog|W`rkn>
Reported error: 35 lines of template instantiation wackiness related to std::set<int>
16:06
<@Tamber>
g++ or clang++ (...or something else?)
16:06
< RichyB>
Xon: dropping connections at pseudo-random *is* the correct solution if you just don't have the resources to track them.
16:07
< Xon>
RichyB, no; they just write NAT entries to memory locations off the table
16:07
<@Tamber>
Richy: ...dropping turds of your NAT table all over everything else in memory -- which I think was implied -- isn't, though :p
16:07
<&ToxicFrog|W`rkn>
Tamber: Clang.
16:07
< RichyB>
When you say "scribble over memory" do you mean actual writing-past-the-ends-of-arrays though?
16:07
< Xon>
yes
16:07
< RichyB>
Ah, real Fandango on Core. :D
16:07
<@Tamber>
TF: ...huh. Normally that's pretty good with error messages.
16:08
<&ToxicFrog|W`rkn>
They're very pretty and well-formatted error messages!
16:08
<&ToxicFrog|W`rkn>
They just make no goddamn sense.
16:08
<@Tamber>
xD
16:08
< Xon>
RichyB, I also don't trust most modems'routers todo DNS properly either. I had an old modem which did proxy DNS, and at about 10 queries per second was enought to make it hardlock =P
16:10
< RichyB>
I am mystified by the whole concept.
16:10
< RichyB>
You can just, like, buy a 700MHz ARM chip and 128MB or so of RAM for pennies, stick Linux or FreeBSD on it for nothing...
16:10
< RichyB>
Why even bother doing it wrong?
16:10
<@Tamber>
Because NIH
16:10
< Xon>
^^
16:11
< Xon>
That or they are using an /ancient/ version of Linux/freebsd which is horribly configured
16:11
<&ToxicFrog|W`rkn>
Well
16:11
<&ToxicFrog|W`rkn>
They're generally already linux based
16:11
<&ToxicFrog|W`rkn>
They configure it to "work" out of the box and put a web interface on it so end users can configure it
16:11
<&ToxicFrog|W`rkn>
But it's all pretty half-assed
16:12
< Xon>
see miniupnp
16:12
<&ToxicFrog|W`rkn>
And half the time there's e.g. custom wireless hardware in there that they write their own drivers for and fuck it up.
16:12
<@froztbyte>
<RichyB> I am mystified by the whole concept.
16:12
<@froztbyte>
<RichyB> You can just, like, buy a 700MHz ARM chip and 128MB or so of RAM for pennies, stick Linux or FreeBSD on it for nothing...
16:12
<@froztbyte>
<RichyB> Why even bother doing it wrong?
16:12
<@froztbyte>
soooooooo
16:12
< Xon>
listen to internet accessable addresses for a protocal that opens port, how can it go wrong!
16:12
<&ToxicFrog|W`rkn>
CFW isn't a significantly different codebase, it's just full-assed rather than half-assed.
16:12
<@froztbyte>
I actually found out how this all goes very badly wrong, in fact
16:13
< Xon>
rofl
16:13
<@Tamber>
Manglement interference?
16:13
<@froztbyte>
got a chance to poke at the innards of a set-top box some time ago
16:13
<@froztbyte>
(and a bunch of other systems)
16:13
<@froztbyte>
(I don't trust hardware until I've broken it)
16:13 * Tamber has 2 decapitated routers in the "awaiting hot logic probes" box.
16:14
< RichyB>
froztbyte: interesting, continue?
16:14
<@Tamber>
One of which actually still appears to work, which is remarkable, since I removed it from 'service' since it hung and stopped working.
16:14
<@froztbyte>
so like, the common issue: due to a bunch of hysterical raisins, the default design choice on a lot of these things appears to be "factory has standard components on the checkbox list that you pick from"
16:14
<@froztbyte>
when that's done, devs are told "this is the platform to dev for, make sure it all fits"
16:14
<@froztbyte>
now that's not *too* terribly bad on the face of it
16:15
<@froztbyte>
but throw in a couple of iterations, feature cycles, etc
16:15
<@froztbyte>
and now you have things which are evolved from the original, but /significantly different enough/
16:15
<@froztbyte>
this is where the fun starts.
16:16
<@froztbyte>
*now* you have a historical codebase, likely from at least 3 different teams over the past couple of years (because the different teams focus on different product aspects/lines)
16:16
<@froztbyte>
and you're told "this is our software stack, it must work on $newmodel_x"
16:16
<@Tamber>
hysterical codebase
16:17
<@froztbyte>
in the case of that STB that I got to poke at, I made out no less than *3* individual system lines that had gotten glued together
16:17
<@froztbyte>
the multicast/igmp handlers were one project
16:17
<@froztbyte>
the webserver was another
16:17
<@froztbyte>
the content on top of the webserver was another
16:17
<@froztbyte>
and you can see these people had no reference materials, because it is *majorly* hacky code to make it work
16:18
<@froztbyte>
(the web UI, while looking quite pretty, had UI actions tied to exec()'d shellscripts which would send commands off to the IGMP daemon)
16:18
<@froztbyte>
(seriously)
16:19
<@froztbyte>
the other fun part which a friend of mine in the embedded world told me about is that sometimes production of the hardware starts before the code is even ready
16:19
<@froztbyte>
just due to deadlines
16:20
<&ToxicFrog|W`rkn>
That's pretty common
16:20
<@froztbyte>
imagine what happens if you run into "this can't possibly work the way we want/need it to"
16:20
<&ToxicFrog|W`rkn>
Build the hardware first, then load the software onto it before you ship it
16:20
<@froztbyte>
ToxicFrog|W`rkn: oh, sure, I know this
16:21
<@froztbyte>
but the few cases where you run into "oh shit, our testing board has a different revision on the one micro, and we can't reflash that on the 100k boards we've already made" sort of scenario
16:21
<@froztbyte>
that's painful
16:30
<&ToxicFrog|W`rkn>
Aah. Yes.
16:31
<&ToxicFrog|W`rkn>
I mean, ideally, you have a well-organized codebase, change one driver, you're good.
16:31
< RichyB>
Ouch.
16:31
<&ToxicFrog|W`rkn>
There's usually some difference between the prototypes and the release build.
16:32
< RichyB>
Ideally you put all of the firmware in the release build onto EEPROMs so that you can afford to flash all the boards again before release.
16:33
<&ToxicFrog|W`rkn>
RichyB: your firmware, yeah - I'm interpreting what froztbyte said as, say, the NICs on the release board have a different firmware rev than on the prototype, and those you probably can't reflash.
16:33
< RichyB>
Oh ew.
16:33
<@froztbyte>
indeed
16:33
<@froztbyte>
this has, in fact, happened at large scale
16:34
<@froztbyte>
intel x86 microcode patch was a flavour of this
16:34
< RichyB>
You really want to buy NICs which take their firmware from your own board. :|
16:34
<@froztbyte>
except fortunately not *as* bad
16:34
<&ToxicFrog|W`rkn>
RichyB: more expensive.
16:34
<@froztbyte>
RichyB: not if you want to be really cheap ;)
16:34
< RichyB>
How much more expensive? Possibly worth it.
16:34
<@froztbyte>
you can literally get these things down to the order of US-cents per component
16:34
<@froztbyte>
and when you're building them in the thousands, that makes a pretty sizable number
16:35
<@froztbyte>
the STB people I knew were actually running their own design of board
16:35
< RichyB>
The cost has to be compared to P(need to replace the NIC firmware) * ?cost of not being able to replace the NIC firmware
16:35
<@froztbyte>
with semi-outsourced software
16:35
< Xon>
lol
16:35
<@froztbyte>
so they didn't have *exceptional* volume, but they still saved a couple thousand dollars just by changing two components with a sub-dollar price difference
16:35
< Xon>
RichyB, except P(need to replace the NIC firmware) is in the future and thus is ignored
16:36
<@froztbyte>
RichyB: some of what Xon says
16:36
< RichyB>
That's precisely what one expects a mature engineering division to be good at not doing.
16:36
<@froztbyte>
also some of "by the point in time it's a problem, we'll tell them to just buy the upgrade, or offer free replacements to anyone willing to bother"
16:36
<@froztbyte>
most home users end up just rebooting the electronics
16:37
<@froztbyte>
because to them it's a perceived less expensive (energy, cost) fix compared to getting the unit swapped out
16:38
< RichyB>
So the cheapest *reliable* solution is a 555 timer, a small cap, a large-valued resistor and a FET.
16:38
<@froztbyte>
ROFL
16:38
< Syk_>
i need to restart this POS every 12 hours
16:38
< Syk_>
should check for a firmware update
16:38
< RichyB>
Make an astable which briefly cuts the power to the CPU every ~6 hours.
16:38
<&ToxicFrog|W`rkn>
Syk_: just install CFW on it~
16:39
<@froztbyte>
RichyB: you know
16:39
< Syk_>
cfw?
16:39
< RichyB>
Job done, we no longer need to worry about memory leaks in the firmware :3
16:39
<@froztbyte>
RichyB: more than likely that would cause boot burn or some stupid shit
16:39
<&ToxicFrog|W`rkn>
RichyB: cut power? Just pull ^RST low for a few seconds.
16:39
< RichyB>
ToxicFrog|W`rkn: yeah or that.
16:39
<&ToxicFrog|W`rkn>
Syk_: custom firmware
16:39
<@froztbyte>
RichyB: some crappy cap on the board just goes "the fuck is happening? THE FUCK ARE YOU GUYS?!"
16:39
<@froztbyte>
and boom goes your ROM
16:40
< Syk_>
oh
16:41
< Syk_>
eh
16:43
<@froztbyte>
oh eh eh oh eh oh oh
16:43 * Syk_ tries it~
16:45
<@froztbyte>
and if anyone didn't get the reference I was making, sorry, but it's mandatory: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rOKFjmTlr5A
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17:53 You're now known as TheWatcher
18:13 Syk is now known as syksleep
19:06
<@Azash>
http://www.marketwatch.com/story/microsoft-admits-failure-on-windows-8-2013-05-0 7
19:07
< AnnoDomini>
Ha!
19:08
<@Pandemic>
victory!
19:09
< [R]>
At least they tried.
19:10
< [R]>
My only worry with that is they continue their horrible stasis with little if any UI innovation.
19:10
<@froztbyte>
this *might* interest the algorihmically inclined among you: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iE_AbM8ZykI
20:23 Turaiel[Offline] is now known as Turaiel
20:31
<@froztbyte>
well. huh.
20:31
<@froztbyte>
http://libcello.org/
20:33 Turaiel is now known as Turaiel[Offline]
20:36
<&ToxicFrog|W`rkn>
o.O
20:38
<&ToxicFrog|W`rkn>
That's...certainly a thing
21:06 Maze is now known as EvilDarkLord
21:08
< RichyB>
Let's not.
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21:22 Turaiel[Offline] is now known as Turaiel
21:30 Kindamoody|out is now known as Kindamoody
21:47
< RichyB>
Aahahahha
21:47
< RichyB>
This year's April 1st RFC was a good one.
21:47
< RichyB>
https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6919
21:48
< RichyB>
For example: "For authentication only, servers and clients MUST support the SASL Salted Challenge Response Authentication Mechanism [SCRAM] -- in particular, the SCRAM-SHA-1 and SCRAM-SHA-1-PLUS variants [(BUT WE KNOW YOU WON'T, because your TLS library doesn't support extracting channel binding information)]." [RFC6120]
21:49
<@Tamber>
*snrk*
22:09 Kindamoody is now known as Kindamoody[zZz]
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--- Log closed Wed May 08 00:00:16 2013
code logs -> 2013 -> Tue, 07 May 2013< code.20130506.log - code.20130508.log >

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