| --- Log opened Mon Mar 18 00:00:00 2013 |
| --- Day changed Mon Mar 18 2013 |
| 00:00 | <&Derakon> | This isn't so much about "I need to be able to switch tasks frequently because otherwise I lose flow" as it is "these flow options suck, I'm finding one that works so in the event I need to switch tasks it isn't a horrible trial." |
| 00:00 | <&Derakon> | Er, these task-switching options suck. |
| 00:00 | <&Derakon> | Not flow o ptions. |
| 00:00 | <&McMartin> | Right |
| 00:00 | <&ToxicFrog> | McMartin: yeah, I am generally not referring to the documentation nearly that frequently. |
| 00:00 | <&ToxicFrog> | If I am, then yes, I do editor+docs on one vdesk. |
| 00:00 | <&McMartin> | This actually explains much of your hatred for Java~ |
| 00:00 | <&ToxicFrog> | ...but version control and build control still go on a separate vdesk. |
| 00:01 | <&McMartin> | I don't *have* a version control window the way you do; if I need deep version control options I'm doing a history dive and that's All The Screen |
| 00:01 | <&ToxicFrog> | (that said, if I'm referring to the documentation that frequently, it usually means that either the IDE, the language designer, the library writer, or all three need to be viciously slapped) |
| 00:01 | <&McMartin> | Build control on Windows is the editor. |
| 00:01 | <&ToxicFrog> | Yeah, my version control is All The Screen so I can fit all three diffs on screen at once. |
| 00:01 | <&McMartin> | Right |
| 00:01 | <&McMartin> | The key thing is that when I'm doing that I'm not doing anything else |
| 00:02 | <&McMartin> | So I can pay the 20 seconds of sorting out my mental state to and from it, and I can not only ignore it when it's not there I can actually *not have it open at all* |
| 00:03 | <&ToxicFrog> | I make frequent, granular commits, and I like to actually read the diffs before I commit precisely because I frequently make multiple commits worth of changes without meaning to |
| 00:03 | <&ToxicFrog> | And in-editor version control is generally not up to the task |
| 00:03 | <&McMartin> | Right |
| 00:03 | <&ToxicFrog> | Thus, a version control screen |
| 00:03 | <&McMartin> | So, part of this is also "we use SVN" |
| 00:03 | <&McMartin> | But then, Windows SVN integration is fantastic and completely invisible until you're doing something with it. |
| 00:04 | <&Derakon> | Always always always review your changes before committing. |
| 00:04 | <&McMartin> | (it becomes part of Explorer's right-click context menu) |
| 00:04 | <&Derakon> | If possible, have someone else review them too. Even if that someone else is "you, the next day." |
| 00:04 | <&ToxicFrog> | Or until it goes insane and decides to index every mounted drive, including networked drives and USB storage, bringing your computer to a crawl >.< |
| 00:05 | | * ToxicFrog has had Bad Experiences with tortoiseSVN |
| 00:05 | <&McMartin> | So yeah, the "commit workflow" (a) is a mental shift and (b) has the operation "open the Explorer window that you've been opening files from and right click somewhere on it, click "Commit", and then review the diffs that come up" |
| 00:05 | <&McMartin> | I also consider this a completely different thing to do than coding, and I need to "wake up" from coding before I can do it properly. |
| 00:06 | <&McMartin> | So having it available in 100ms without moving my hands is not actually a requirement. |
| 00:06 | <&ToxicFrog> | Anyways, some major differences here appear to be that I'm using linux, not OSX or windows, I'm not working on stuff that requires constant reference to the documentation, and I'm making frequent, small commits using git. |
| 00:06 | <&ToxicFrog> | And yeah, for me, commits are part of the development flow. |
| 00:06 | <&ToxicFrog> | I don't consider it a context switch. |
| 00:07 | <&McMartin> | That's the big difference. |
| 00:07 | <&ToxicFrog> | Or, if it is one, it's less of one than e.g. referring to documentation. |
| 00:07 | <&Derakon> | Commits bring me to a slightly higher level than coding, but they aren't a complete task switch. |
| 00:07 | <&McMartin> | I won't drop into coding mode without a very clear idea of what I intend to accomplish and if something else is there when I've snapped out, as noted, I treat that as something having gone terribly wrong~ |
| 00:07 | <&McMartin> | (Also, I work on a product that takes upwards of 30 minutes to build.) |
| 00:07 | <&Derakon> | (Ew) |
| 00:08 | <&ToxicFrog> | (ick) |
| 00:08 | <&Derakon> | (My sympathies) |
| 00:08 | <&McMartin> | (locally. Actual full product is 60-105) |
| 00:08 | <&ToxicFrog> | (ifirc takes about 30s for a cold build, and usually I'm not doing a cold build, I'm reloading stuff while the daemon is running) |
| 00:09 | <~Vornicus> | I'm kind of surprised there's stillstuff that takes that long to build. |
| 00:09 | <&Derakon> | I don't really have a build step, but it takes like 10-15s for the Cockpit to start up if none of the .pyc files are present/up-to-date. |
| 00:09 | <&McMartin> | It's been awhile since I've done a KLOC count. |
| 00:09 | <&ToxicFrog> | Vornicus: gcc. The linux kernel. |
| 00:09 | <&Derakon> | Then again, I wrote the entire thing myself, so it's not exactly a huge program. |
| 00:09 | <&ToxicFrog> | Basically anything written in a compiled language at Google~ |
| 00:09 | <@Namegduf> | C++ projects tend to be like that. |
| 00:09 | <&McMartin> | But there are approximately 200 actual build products on a single platform that go into making the actual final install package |
| 00:10 | <&ToxicFrog> | I mean, if you're not doing a cold build, you can usually cut down the build times a lot. |
| 00:10 | <@Namegduf> | Some C projects can be, too. |
| 00:10 | <&McMartin> | And then there are five platforms. |
| 00:10 | <&ToxicFrog> | Unless you're working on some library that Everything Everywhere depends on, and you're testing the whole system. |
| 00:10 | <&McMartin> | It is A Large Product. |
| 00:10 | <~Vornicus> | gcc itself surprises me on that list. |
| 00:10 | <@Namegduf> | GCC takes longer than the kernel |
| 00:10 | <&McMartin> | I don't have wc here |
| 00:10 | <~Vornicus> | that's even more surprising to me. |
| 00:10 | <&ToxicFrog> | It doesn't surprise me at all. |
| 00:11 | <&McMartin> | But src/ is 125MB and comprises about 5000 files in about 400 directories. |
| 00:11 | <&McMartin> | So yeah, it takes Some Time to go through all that. |
| 00:11 | <&McMartin> | Not all of that is actual source code produced by humans, but that also means there's the build step for "produce that other source" |
| 00:11 | <&ToxicFrog> | Hell, above a certain size the cost of pre-build dependency resolution will be significant even if nothing actually needs to be rebuilt. |
| 00:11 | <&Derakon> | Ahh, metacode. |
| 00:12 | <&ToxicFrog> | I have worked on projects where the build system had to be rewritten because accurately figuring out what needed to be rebuilt was the most expensive part of the build. |
| 00:12 | | * McMartin is also leaving the "prebuilt" stuff and the ensuring that it is in acceptable shape part entirely out of this equation. |
| 00:12 | <~Vornicus> | gcc is actually surprisingly large then. |
| 00:12 | <&McMartin> | TF: >_< |
| 00:12 | <&McMartin> | Yeah, I know how that works |
| 00:13 | <&ToxicFrog> | (on the plus side, we got to finish migrating our entire dev workflow to linux and drop wine as a build requirement in the process) |
| 00:13 | <&McMartin> | (>_<) |
| 00:13 | <&McMartin> | (At least VirtualBox finally actually has all its build requirements available for download or purchase now. GJ, Oracle, unironically) |
| 00:14 | <&McMartin> | (Back when they were at Sun the Windows build required you to hack together a custom version of MinGW that (a) supported 64-bit because it didn't then and (b) produced 64-bit ELF binaries) |
| 00:14 | <&McMartin> | (for the Windows executable, which is of course COFF) |
| 00:14 | <&McMartin> | (When *they* built it, they built it on 64-bit Solaris and just ran MSVS in Wine~) |
| 00:15 | <&ToxicFrog> | (when I started there, windows was the default with a cygwin make based build system; at some point we migrated to linux, but still needed wine for some compilers.) |
| 00:15 | <&McMartin> | (argh) |
| 00:15 | <&McMartin> | Popping out |
| 00:15 | <&ToxicFrog> | I had a hand in moving the build system to linux, which meant I got to make a commit touching 5000+ files simultaneously to normalize file cases. |
| 00:16 | <&McMartin> | Cygwin has always been spiders whenever I've touched it; is there anything it's good for that MSYS or "you seriously should not be hosting this on Windows" is not the answer to? |
| 00:16 | <&Derakon> | Having SSH handy~ |
| 00:16 | <&ToxicFrog> | Arguably the situation there was "you seriously should not be hosting this on windows" and had been for at least a year before I joined. |
| 00:16 | <&McMartin> | Yeah, it sounds like |
| 00:16 | <@Namegduf> | SSH, wget, wc, basically having access to shell scripting |
| 00:16 | <&ToxicFrog> | That said, ssh -X |
| 00:16 | <&McMartin> | Derakon: PuTTY is pretty solid |
| 00:16 | <@Namegduf> | Not for utility scripts but for running one-offs |
| 00:16 | <&ToxicFrog> | I don't think MSYS comes with ssh, and it definitely doesn't come with an X server. |
| 00:17 | <&McMartin> | Right |
| 00:17 | <&McMartin> | My experience with Cygwin is that it did not come with a *working* X server. |
| 00:17 | <&McMartin> | It instead came with a program that reliably hard-locked my system as soon as I did anything that wanted to open a window |
| 00:17 | <&Derakon> | McM: coworker of mine uses cygwin for access to X tunnelling. |
| 00:17 | <&ToxicFrog> | It's also handy just for general shell scripting for e.g. mass file mangling, without needing to worry that it won't work because, say, wc is not actually as core as you think it is and thus is not available. |
| 00:17 | <&Derakon> | And he's not the most Linux-savvy guy out there. |
| 00:18 | <&ToxicFrog> | Cygwin's X server support has worked reliably for me since, um |
| 00:18 | <&ToxicFrog> | 2003? 2004? |
| 00:18 | <&ToxicFrog> | Earlier? |
| 00:18 | <&McMartin> | Yeah, I was having failures of this mode as late as 2009 |
| 00:18 | <&ToxicFrog> | That said, it was some time after that before it became good, as in, "run it from the start menu and now you have a seamless X server running and a systray icon for it" |
| 00:19 | <&McMartin> | And got the helpful response that it was Windows's fault for hardlocking |
| 00:19 | <&ToxicFrog> | Rather than needing to open a shell and "startx" by hand. |
| 00:19 | <&McMartin> | MSYS on the other hand has always worked flawlessly for me so I've been friendlier with it~ |
| 00:19 | <@Namegduf> | To be fair, when "hardlocking" becomes involved, it's quite plausible that it is some sort of driver problem |
| 00:19 | <&ToxicFrog> | See, I've had the opposite experience |
| 00:19 | <@Namegduf> | By on large software is not supposed to be even able to do that |
| 00:19 | <&McMartin> | TF: This seems to be true of many things with us |
| 00:20 | <&McMartin> | (See also: video drivers~) |
| 00:20 | <&ToxicFrog> | I got into Cygwin at the point where it had a unified installer which you ran and selected packages from and then waited for six hours while it installed |
| 00:20 | <@Namegduf> | That may have practical implications on the given system, but probably won't generalise to others. |
| 00:20 | <&McMartin> | I remember attempting to use it back then too. |
| 00:20 | <&ToxicFrog> | For years after that point - possibly still - it wasn't clear where the division between Mingw and MSYS was, which of the dozen+ installers and zip files you needed, and what the installation procedure was |
| 00:21 | <&ToxicFrog> | It was very, very, very easy to end up with an MSYS install that either did not function at all, or appeared to function but was missing some piece of software that was absolutely critical for your intended use case, like gcc. |
| 00:22 | <&McMartin> | There is a thing that claims to be an installer now |
| 00:22 | <&ToxicFrog> | Historically it has in fact been easier for me to generate windows builds by using the mingw-based linux-host windows-target cross compiler than by using Actual Mingw. |
| 00:22 | <&McMartin> | Oh, that's actually been true for ages~ |
| 00:22 | <&ToxicFrog> | (and for years before that, I just generated all of my windows builds with cygwin and packaged the DLLs, because that actually worked) |
| 00:23 | <&McMartin> | (The mingw Linux cross-compilers are Really Good, to the level of being Better Than gcc's Other Cross-Compilers) |
| 00:23 | <&McMartin> | (having used both them and the ARM ones, which by rights should be the best-developed) |
| 00:24 | <&McMartin> | (MingW still has a couple of horrible bits though such as refusing to admit that Windows does not use POSIX entry points and refusing to let you expose them) |
| 00:24 | <&McMartin> | (The MinGW64 fork might fix that) |
| 00:25 | <&McMartin> | (Hmm, man gcc implies it does.) |
| 00:26 | <&ToxicFrog> | These days my approach is just not to do anything in C~ |
| 00:26 | <&ToxicFrog> | Granted, it's not like releasing JVM based stuff on windows is any better. |
| 00:27 | <&McMartin> | But yes, despite the fact that the Actual Windows argv has been wchar_t for 13 years so that you could have normalized pathnames everywhere, MinGW has never supported this, so you had to define an 8-bit main() and then call GetCommandLineW() and pass that to CommandLineToArgvW() to get the argv you'd otherwise get for free by setting -municode and having wmain(int argc, wchar_t **argv) as your entry point. =P |
| 00:27 | <&McMartin> | Meanwhile, the Linux cross-compiler totally supports -municode while MinGW *on Windows* does not unless you hunt down an unofficial build. |
| 00:28 | <&McMartin> | I'm kind of wondering if my venom here, since it seems so different from the obvious normal judgements, is due to growing up on 8-bit micros |
| 00:31 | | * Vornicus befuddles at why Lua is feeling so alien to him. |
| 00:31 | | * McMartin blinks |
| 00:32 | <&McMartin> | OK, I take that back |
| 00:32 | <&McMartin> | Despite being the standard on 32-bit windows for 13 years, mingw still can't target it; -municode is only an option if you're producing AMD64 executables. |
| 00:32 | | * McMartin golfclaps. |
| 00:32 | <~Vornicus> | I don't get it. Haskell and Scheme and PostScript all felt more natural. |
| 00:40 | <@himi> | Is there any way to write python extensions that doesn't involve C? |
| 00:41 | <&Derakon> | Cython will get you a speed bump, if that's what you're worried about. |
| 00:41 | <@himi> | No, I mean linking to stuff that's written in another language |
| 00:42 | <&Derakon> | Oh. |
| 00:42 | <@himi> | Like, say, some random scientist's life work, which they want me to build a pretty GUI on top of |
| 00:42 | <&Derakon> | Yeah, there's a library that does that, can't recall off the top of my head. |
| 00:42 | <&Derakon> | At work I use SWIG. |
| 00:42 | <&Derakon> | Which does cross-language libraries. |
| 00:42 | <&Derakon> | But it can be a bit of a pain to work with. |
| 00:43 | <&Derakon> | Ah! ctypes. |
| 00:43 | <&Derakon> | That's the Python library for calling foreign language libraries. |
| 00:43 | <&Derakon> | http://docs.python.org/2/library/ctypes.html |
| 00:44 | <&ToxicFrog> | I also don't get it, you're a Python programmer, most of this should be familiar! |
| 00:44 | <&ToxicFrog> | I don't know, maybe try PiL instead of the reference manual? |
| 00:44 | <&ToxicFrog> | If you're doing lua<->python interop, there's Lunatic Python, which lets each language call the other seamlessly and host the other's VM's; I'd assume other languages have something similar. |
| 00:44 | | * Derakon blinks at TF. |
| 00:45 | <&Derakon> | Oh, talking to Vorn. |
| 00:45 | <&ToxicFrog> | No, to himi, for "linking to stuff written in another language" |
| 00:45 | <&Derakon> | Ah. But then why should being a Python programmer imply that such things should be familiar? |
| 00:46 | <&ToxicFrog> | Wait, what order did that stuff come out in? |
| 00:46 | <&ToxicFrog> | "I also don't get it..." and "I don't know..." were directed at Vorn; "If you're doing lua<->python..." was at himi. |
| 00:46 | <&Derakon> | "I also don't get it..." -> "I don't know, maybe try PiL..." -> "If you're doing lua<->python..." |
| 00:46 | <&Derakon> | Okay, I assumed all three lines were at the same person, lacking indicators to the contrary. |
| 00:47 | <&ToxicFrog> | On my side, the first two were immediately after Vorn's statement, so... |
| 00:47 | <&Derakon> | I don't see anything from Vorn since 15 minutes ago. |
| 00:47 | <@himi> | Well, this was just a random question that popped into my head in the context of the earlier comments about not using C at all, so I didn't do much research or anything |
| 00:47 | <&ToxicFrog> | Yes. |
| 00:47 | <&ToxicFrog> | I typed those at 2035 my time. |
| 00:48 | <&Derakon> | They took, uh, 9 minutes to get to me. |
| 00:48 | <&ToxicFrog> | (And being a Python programmer implies, to me, that Lua should be familiar (or at least more familiar than scheme etc) because the two languages have a lot of conceptual similarities) |
| 00:48 | <&ToxicFrog> | My wireless did go a bit funny at some point in there |
| 00:48 | <@himi> | The foreign language stuff I've done with python has been cases where I /wanted/ to provide a "proper" interface, since the scientist wanted to have some options for maintaining the code himself |
| 00:49 | | * ToxicFrog pokes Vornicus |
| 00:50 | <@himi> | Aha, I sorted out the addressing of TF's comments |
| 00:50 | | * McMartin tests ConnectBot on Ice Cream Sandwich |
| 00:51 | <@himi> | TF: for something like lua I'd imagine there'd be plenty of options, given the nature of the two languages - for older, native languages like Fortran, though, it'd be a different matter |
| 00:51 | <&Derakon> | I kinda want to eat an Its-It but I had too large a dinner already. :( |
| 00:51 | <&McMartin> | Seems no worse than before, but still no PgUp |
| 00:51 | <@himi> | McMartin: works a treat |
| 00:51 | <@himi> | Helps if you have an external keyboard with a vaguely sane mapping, though |
| 00:52 | <&McMartin> | yeah, this is a phone, is kind of obnoxious |
| 00:53 | <~Vornicus> | meep |
| 00:53 | <~Vornicus> | I've actually been flipping between both. |
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| 11:15 | | * Azash diagnoses Rham as having connection problems |
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| 19:16 | | * McMartin rages once again at the MacBook Pro keyboard layout |
| 19:16 | <&McMartin> | I really need to get an external keyboard for this |
| 19:18 | <@froztbyte> | which part? |
| 19:18 | <&McMartin> | The size and location of Left Ctrl |
| 19:19 | <@froztbyte> | hmm |
| 19:19 | <@froztbyte> | I didn't use it too much |
| 19:19 | | * McMartin uses Emacs as his text editor of choice. |
| 19:19 | <@froztbyte> | (past tense, because as of recently my laptop (along with a bunch of other stuff) is missing) |
| 19:20 | <&McMartin> | Which means that it is the ... !!!! |
| 19:20 | <&McMartin> | Yuck, my condolences |
| 19:20 | <@froztbyte> | yeah, it's a bit sucky |
| 19:20 | <@froztbyte> | I must admit I liked the use of cmd though |
| 19:20 | <@froztbyte> | cmd-tab is far nicer than alt-bat |
| 19:20 | <@froztbyte> | [akd;lakasd |
| 19:20 | <@froztbyte> | alt-tab* |
| 19:21 | <&McMartin> | There are - as you can find from an unusually spirited argument yesterday - little quirks with the Mac Cmd-Tab that break my workflows~ |
| 19:21 | <@jeroud> | McMartin: I always remap caps to ctrl. |
| 19:21 | <&McMartin> | That's nice, but I'd need to map Fn to it *and* ctrl to it; my touchtypeing reflexes say there's only one key there. |
| 19:21 | <&McMartin> | Also I didn't encounter a Sun keyboard until the age of 27. |
| 19:22 | <@froztbyte> | I didn't read that yesterday, I'd have to go read the scroool |
| 19:22 | <&McMartin> | I accept it as an eminently reasonable place to put Ctrl though~ |
| 19:22 | <@jeroud> | McMartin: Likewise, but training my fingers for it was surprisingly easy. |
| 19:22 | <@froztbyte> | caps-as-ctrl seems like it could be sensible |
| 19:22 | <@froztbyte> | and less finger-twisty than using your 5th finger on control |
| 19:23 | <&McMartin> | Yeah |
| 19:23 | <@jeroud> | Also, Many Tricks Witch gives you very sensible and configurable alt+tab behaviour. |
| 19:23 | <&McMartin> | Although I can reach a tenth on a baby grand piano |
| 19:23 | <@froztbyte> | 14 keys |
| 19:23 | <@froztbyte> | 15 at a good (almost painful) stretch |
| 19:23 | <&McMartin> | jeroud: Can I install those on a communal system without ruining everyone else's experience? |
| 19:23 | <@froztbyte> | I don't know what that equates to |
| 19:24 | <&McMartin> | Are you counting black keys? |
| 19:24 | <@froztbyte> | no, just whites |
| 19:24 | <&McMartin> | A fourteenth or a fifteenth then >_> |
| 19:24 | <&McMartin> | Also that is a lot |
| 19:24 | <@froztbyte> | haha |
| 19:24 | <@jeroud> | McMartin: If they don't hit alt+tab, yes. |
| 19:24 | <@froztbyte> | lemme try find this pic quick |
| 19:24 | <&McMartin> | jeroud: Welp, that's out |
| 19:25 | <@jeroud> | I don't think it does anything by default. |
| 19:26 | <@froztbyte> | hrm, can't find the other pic |
| 19:26 | <@froztbyte> | uploading a new one |
| 19:29 | <@jeroud> | McMartin: cmd+tab and cmd+` are the usual app/window switching keys. |
| 19:29 | <@froztbyte> | excuse the colouring, latest ROM update has very weird camera defaults: https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-N6ueiSAPicY/UUdqe7kkGjI/AAAAAAAAJSo/N22mtkaDa BU/s597/IMG_20130318_212518.jpg |
| 19:30 | <@froztbyte> | that's a standard size DVD case |
| 19:30 | <@froztbyte> | (and a Logitech UltraX keyboard) |
| 19:30 | <@jeroud> | But you can set whatever keys you want in Witch. |
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| 20:41 | <&ToxicFrog> | God, I love having cluster access. |
| 20:41 | | Derakon_ [chriswei@Nightstar-a3b183ae.ca.comcast.net] has joined #code |
| 20:41 | < Derakon_> | Hm, it occurs to me that compression algorithms would probably prefer that my image data use integer datatypes rather than floats. |
| 20:41 | <&ToxicFrog> | "Elapsed time: real 210 seconds, cpu 1.5h" |
| 20:42 | <&McMartin> | That is Many Cores |
| 20:42 | <&ToxicFrog> | Yes it is. |
| 20:49 | <@Azash> | 42 cores? |
| 20:49 | <&ToxicFrog> | And it makes me happy. |
| 20:49 | <&ToxicFrog> | Actually a lot of that "real" time is waiting for the network. |
| 20:49 | | * ToxicFrog has ALL OF THE CORES |
| 21:00 | <~Vornicus> | SHOOT THE CORE |
| 21:12 | <@AnnoDomini> | Use the Force, Luke! |
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| 21:43 | <&McMartin> | [programming] vaporware | Many innocent people might visit this site, so to avoid causing offence, certain obnoxious words and phrases are strongly discouraged. |
| 21:43 | <&McMartin> | [programming] vaporware | These words include: "endofunctor", "anamorphism", "existential quantification", "beta reduction", "category theory", "final coalgebra", "Kleisli arrows", "Curry.Howard correspondence" and worst of all, the five letter word beginning with "m". |
| 21:50 | | * Derakon_ blarghs at bossman, who wants him to send several GB worth of data to a collaborator in India via Dropbox -- which has a 2GB limit for unpaid accounts. |
| 21:50 | < Derakon_> | And it doesn't compress at all if it's in floating point, which the vast majority of the data is. |
| 21:53 | <@Azash> | Derakon_: Simple, cast to ints~ |
| 21:53 | < Derakon_> | We lose rather a lot of precision that way. |
| 21:54 | < Derakon_> | Also I have to install the fucking desktop application to do the uploading because they're too big to use the website uploader. |
| 21:54 | < Derakon_> | Stupid thing. |
| 21:55 | <@Reiv> | Floats aren't precise! |
| 21:55 | < Derakon_> | They're more precise than using ints to represent floating point data! |
| 21:56 | <@Azash> | It wasn't a serious suggestion, mind |
| 21:57 | <@Azash> | It's not much of a data compression if it isn't reversible |
| 21:57 | <@Reiv> | Derakon_: Oh, that's easy. |
| 21:58 | <@Reiv> | You just use one integer to carry the first eight digits, and the second to carry the scienific notation! |
| 21:58 | <@Azash> | No no, Reiv, how about this |
| 21:58 | <@Azash> | You take sets of eight binary digits and then get the char they represent |
| 21:59 | <@Azash> | This way you can store one char instead of eight digits, which saves space |
| 22:04 | <@Reiv> | Awesome! |
| 22:09 | <@AnnoDomini> | Derakon_: Use strings! :P |
| 22:11 | < Derakon_> | You people are starkers and I'll have none of it~ |
| 22:17 | <@Reiv> | Please. |
| 22:17 | <@Reiv> | Starkers would be storing the information for each float bitwise in a red/black tree. |
| 22:18 | < Derakon_> | I'd say that gets into "intentionally perverse" actually. |
| 22:20 | <@Reiv> | Naw, that would be sorting the bits for each float into buckets according to Pascal's Triangle progression, then writing each bit as "ONER" and "ZERO" in individual text files, sorted by time of writing, which are then compressed with a modified LZW algorathm and saved as .jpg. |
| 22:20 | <@Reiv> | No flaw to the plan! |
| 22:21 | <@Reiv> | Except maybe the plan. |
| 22:21 | <@Reiv> | That might be a flaw. |
| 22:21 | <@Reiv> | ~ |
| 22:21 | | * Vornicus pokes at lua, thinks he might have figured this bit out. |
| 22:22 | < Derakon_> | Well, it'd also be lossy due to the JPG compression. That's bad. |
| 22:22 | <@Reiv> | No, no. |
| 22:22 | <@Reiv> | You save it /as/ .jpg. Literally. |
| 22:22 | < Derakon_> | Like, the filename is ".jpg"? |
| 22:22 | <@Reiv> | Right. |
| 22:23 | <@Reiv> | Afterall, it /is/ an image, right? |
| 22:23 | < Derakon_> | Not lossy, just gratuitously misleading then. |
| 22:23 | <@Reiv> | :) |
| 22:23 | < Derakon_> | Of course, properly speaking the extension should be .jpg.jpg. |
| 22:23 | <@Reiv> | Hey, lossy would simply be 'broken', as opposed to 'perverse'. |
| 22:23 | | * Alek snerks. |
| 22:23 | < Derakon_> | Since you have "hide file extensions" turned on. |
| 22:23 | <@Reiv> | haha |
| 22:24 | <@Reiv> | I suppose you could save it as an actual .png |
| 22:24 | <@iospace> | It's not S Q L, not "Sequel", it's "squirrel" |
| 22:24 | <@Reiv> | This would allow it to load correctly! Just, uh, slightly static-y. |
| 22:24 | <@Reiv> | "Sekel" here |
| 22:25 | <@Reiv> | Though most of the buisness uses "Sequel" as the closest intelligible phenome |
| 22:25 | < RichyB> | Derakon: what precision and range do your data take? |
| 22:25 | <&McMartin> | Squirrel would be SQRL. |
| 22:25 | < RichyB> | iospace: I like the idea. |
| 22:25 | <@iospace> | McMartin: someone else said it |
| 22:26 | < RichyB> | If you're sending, say, all integers in the range [0,1) then you could in principle immediately knock one bit off the exponent for every float or double. :) |
| 22:26 | <&McMartin> | I can express all integers in the range [0, 1) with zero bits. |
| 22:27 | < RichyB> | er |
| 22:27 | < RichyB> | gah |
| 22:27 | < RichyB> | I meant reals. *facepalm* |
| 22:27 | <&McMartin> | (I have no idea what's actually being discussed here, but~) |
| 22:27 | <&McMartin> | OK, I'm still missing something here; even infinity bits isn't enough for all reals in [0,1) |
| 22:28 | < RichyB> | Derakon has unfortunately been tasked with sending >2GB of data, which is apparently all floating-point numbers, to a colleague through dropbox with its significantly <2GB file size limit. |
| 22:28 | <&McMartin> | (And I would have gotten away with it too, if it weren't for that meddling Cantor and his diagonals!) |
| 22:28 | <&McMartin> | Oh I see |
| 22:28 | < RichyB> | McMartin: pretend we're talking FORTRAN. ;P |
| 22:28 | <&McMartin> | Split it up into "floppy disks"! |
| 22:29 | < RichyB> | Yeah, that. Upload several 2GB files and explain the proper use of the program commonly known as "cat". |
| 22:29 | < Derakon_> | I could fix the data's dynamic range and convert to 16-bit ints without losing too much, but that's a lot of work frankly. |
| 22:30 | < RichyB> | (IIRC on DOS or Windows, if you write COPY FILE1 FILE2 FILE3 ... OUTPUTFILE in a batch file, where OUTPUTFILE is not a directory name, it'll concatenate the files into OUTPUTFILE.) |
| 22:30 | <@Alek> | most zip programs are able to archive into split files. |
| 22:30 | <@Reiv> | RichyB: Or on windows, "WinRAR" |
| 22:30 | <@Alek> | 7zip should. and it's free! |
| 22:30 | <@Reiv> | zip does it too, but then Windows gets confused, too. |
| 22:30 | < RichyB> | Yeah. Use a zip or rar program, set the compression mechanism to STORE rather than compress because you're getting nothing anyway, let 'er rip. |
| 22:30 | <&McMartin> | 7zip >>>>>>> WinRAR. |
| 22:30 | < RichyB> | 7zip ftw. |
| 22:30 | <@Reiv> | McMartin: That's "7zip is better"? |
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| 22:31 | <&McMartin> | "Is much greater than" |
| 22:31 | < RichyB> | Reiv: "7zip > WinRAR" is "7zip is better than WinRAR" |
| 22:31 | <@Alek> | yes, 7zip can make split files. |
| 22:31 | <@Alek> | UNFORTUNATELY |
| 22:31 | < RichyB> | Reiv: "7zip >> WinRAR" is "7zip is so much better than WinRAR that you can immediately forget about WinRAR if 7zip happens to be available to you." |
| 22:31 | <@Alek> | you can't specify split sizes. |
| 22:31 | <@Alek> | there's floppy size, 10mb, 2 CD sizes, and a dvd size. |
| 22:31 | <@Alek> | that's all. |
| 22:32 | <@Reiv> | Is 7zip a software, or an algoarthm? |
| 22:32 | < RichyB> | Software. |
| 22:32 | <@Reiv> | I would happily ditch WinRAR from my standard setup if it handles a similar range of esoteric compression sets. |
| 22:32 | <@Alek> | I do wonder what the "solid block size" option does. |
| 22:32 | < RichyB> | There's a file format called 7z too, though. 7zip is not the only program that can read it. |
| 22:33 | <@Alek> | 7zip supports a range of formats. not just .7z |
| 22:33 | < RichyB> | LZMA is the algorithm. There's also a Unix thing which uses it called "xz", which is like gzip only gzippier. |
| 22:33 | <@Alek> | 7z, bzip2, gzip, tar, wim, gz, zip |
| 22:34 | <@Alek> | those are the formats supported by 7zip |
| 22:34 | < RichyB> | Yes. The lovely thing about 7zip is that it supports most every lossless compression codec you could want, including the current state-of-the-art one (LZMA), and it's open-source. |
| 22:34 | <@Alek> | and I repeat, 7zip is free, winrar ain't. |
| 22:34 | <@Reiv> | winrar is totally free |
| 22:34 | <@Reiv> | You just have to click past a nag screen~ |
| 22:34 | <@Alek> | but again, 7zip only has a handful of split-file sizes. for under-2gb you'll have to go to 700mb cd size. |
| 22:35 | <@Reiv> | 7zip can't do rar? |
| 22:35 | <@Reiv> | I see a lot of rars in the wild. |
| 22:36 | <@Alek> | WinRAR is a trial product, meaning you have the chance to thoroughly test it. The program can be used absolutely free of charge for 40 days! |
| 22:36 | <@Reiv> | And then you click an 'ignore' button after that. |
| 22:36 | <@Reiv> | Seriously, you /have/ used it rite |
| 22:36 | <@Alek> | yes, I have. |
| 22:37 | <@Alek> | and from what I recall, several functions are disabled after trial ends. |
| 22:37 | <@Alek> | functions I wanted to keep using. |
| 22:37 | <@Alek> | admittedly, it's been a few years since last time. |
| 22:37 | | * Reiv muses. Hasn't seen that. Hasn't been bothered to use the fancy stuff, mind. |
| 22:37 | <@Alek> | wait, no rar capability? *checks* |
| 22:38 | <@Alek> | oh yes it can. |
| 22:38 | <@Alek> | Supported formats: |
| 22:38 | <@Alek> | Packing / unpacking: 7z, XZ, BZIP2, GZIP, TAR, ZIP and WIM |
| 22:38 | <@Alek> | Unpacking only: ARJ, CAB, CHM, CPIO, CramFS, DEB, DMG, FAT, HFS, ISO, LZH, LZMA, MBR, MSI, NSIS, NTFS, RAR, RPM, SquashFS, UDF, VHD, WIM, XAR and Z. |
| 22:38 | <&McMartin> | Therea re two "rar" formats |
| 22:38 | <@Alek> | it can open them, just not make them. |
| 22:38 | <@Alek> | good enough for me. |
| 22:42 | <@Alek> | http://www.7-zip.org/ |
| 22:42 | <@Alek> | check out the table at the bottom of the page |
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| 23:40 | <&ToxicFrog> | <Alek> and from what I recall, several functions are disabled after trial ends. -- you recall incorrectly, unless this is something they've added in the past 4-5 years |
| 23:41 | <&ToxicFrog> | Also, you can totally specify the split size to 7z. |
| 23:42 | <@Alek> | no, this is something I remember from years ago. |
| 23:42 | <@Alek> | but then again, it might have been even older, from when I used winzip. |
| 23:43 | <@Alek> | but anyway, I dislike using nagware. I paid for mIRC to avoid nags. >_> |
| --- Log closed Tue Mar 19 00:00:01 2013 |