| --- Log opened Sun Feb 24 00:00:32 2013 |
| 00:05 | | thalass [thalass@Nightstar-23c59d3f.bigpond.net.au] has joined #code |
| 00:09 | <@Rhamphoryncus> | Well that's good. So efficient that the battery tied |
| 00:09 | <@Rhamphoryncus> | died* |
| 00:17 | | You're now known as TheWatcher[T-2 |
| 00:24 | | You're now known as TheWatcher[zZzZ] |
| 00:30 | <&McMartin> | Hrm |
| 00:30 | | * McMartin has done the first 90% of the work on the desktop cross-platform version of Hex Inverter, just as part of nailing down the GM:S version |
| 00:30 | | * McMartin wonders if he should do the second 90% of the work. |
| 00:31 | <@Haeroe> | Hex inverter? |
| 00:31 | <&McMartin> | http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=112870390 |
| 00:32 | <@Haeroe> | Ah, neat |
| 00:33 | <&McMartin> | The plan had been "port this to Android for fun", but it turns out that this is not unlike "hit self in groin with hammer for fun" |
| 00:33 | <&McMartin> | But that also means I have the Java core working perfectly and a proof-of-concept Swing UI. |
| 00:33 | <@Haeroe> | Swing? My condolences |
| 00:34 | <&McMartin> | GUI programming, man. |
| 00:34 | <&McMartin> | As horrifying as it is to say it, Swing is the second best GUI API I've ever used. |
| 00:34 | <&McMartin> | Mmmaybe third bets. |
| 00:34 | <&McMartin> | *best |
| 00:34 | <&McMartin> | It beats raw GTK and wx hollow |
| 00:36 | <&McMartin> | (Also, this project wouldn't need much; just enough to cure it of its GM:S-enforced "consolitis" |
| 00:37 | <&McMartin> | I do have an action item of sorts to have a go at designing an actually complicated interface and then implementing it in Clojure through the JVM FFI |
| 00:38 | <&McMartin> | The simple cases seem to indicate that Clojure's LISP macro-y stuff makes this much easier |
| 00:41 | <@celticminstrel> | Which is the best one? |
| 00:42 | <&McMartin> | The one I've had the best luck with overall is Qt4. |
| 00:42 | <@celticminstrel> | Oh. :/ |
| 00:42 | <&McMartin> | Note that this is also under the specific constraint of "you are writing the UI code yourself". |
| 00:42 | <&McMartin> | There is very little to distinguish Qt4, GTK+, and Windows Forms if you're using a visual designer, other than that Windows Forms doesn't handle springs right IIRC. |
| 00:44 | <@RStamer> | Springs? |
| 00:44 | <&McMartin> | Widgets that consume all available space in a layout, generally needed to make resizable windows work remotely acceptably. |
| 00:45 | <&McMartin> | all *remaining* available, space, rather, |
| 00:45 | <&McMartin> | The standard thing being that the bottom two rows of your window should be "vertical spring" and then "horizontal spring, OK button, Cancel button" |
| 00:46 | <&McMartin> | And now your OK/Cancel buttons are always in the lower right even after a resize |
| 00:47 | <&McMartin> | IIRC, GTK doesn't have explicit springs but instead lets you designate widgets as also functioning as springs |
| 00:48 | <&McMartin> | Qt calls them spacers; IIRC the term "springs" is from NextStep, and thus OS X through that. |
| 00:48 | | * McMartin is a little vague on that point. |
| 00:49 | <&McMartin> | Swing IIRC works vaguely like GTK here but it's more common to abuse BorderLayouts. |
| 00:50 | <&McMartin> | (The standard way to do "OK/Cancel button in bottom right is "Whole panel is a BorderLayout; its South is a BorderLayout whose East is a FlowLayout of an OK and a Cancel button") |
| 00:51 | <&McMartin> | (This is strictly worse than Qt4's container.addComponent(QSpacer()), but Swing's has an Actually Unreservedly Excellent event processing model that lets it edge out GTK) |
| 00:52 | <&McMartin> | Which is to say, user operations publish events into a comprehensive publish/subscribe model with full multicast support. |
| 00:52 | <&McMartin> | It's ugly, but it's ugly because of Java, more or less; this is one reason why Clojure!Swing holds so much promise. |
| 00:53 | <&McMartin> | Qt4, meanwhie, has a completely generic publish/subscribe model, which it gets via extending C++ and adding a precompilation step. |
| 00:54 | <@Rhamphoryncus> | Funny how much that stuff is held back by the language |
| 00:54 | <&McMartin> | Yeah |
| 00:55 | <&McMartin> | Though it's kind of funny, because, for instance, this is a place where it beats out Cocoa |
| 00:55 | <&McMartin> | And that's because Cocoa uses Objective-C, which uses roughly the Python model of methods, is better *enough* at this kind of thing that you just go with it |
| 00:56 | <&McMartin> | But then you don't get full multicast, so in having to Deal With C++'s Bullshit And The Similar Bullshit Java Inherited, they wound up doing it better when they had to redo it |
| 00:56 | <&McMartin> | (by "full multicast" I mean "any object can sign up to be notified when button X is clicked/gets a mouseover event/etc") |
| 00:57 | <@gnolam> | Ugh, Swing. |
| 00:57 | <&McMartin> | (And when it happens, all such objects get their methods called) |
| 00:57 | <@gnolam> | I honestly prefer wx. |
| 00:57 | <@gnolam> | And I think I've vented enough about wx here to make my thoughts about it known. |
| 00:57 | <&McMartin> | Yes |
| 00:57 | <&McMartin> | You've done much better with wx than I have, though, viz: you have contended with code that actually compiles and maybe even runs in more than one environment |
| 00:58 | <&McMartin> | Also, it's important for me to qualify the nice things I'm saying about Swing by saying that it being usable relies very heavily on the ability to trivially define anonymous inner classes, which I don't think was added until 1.5. |
| 00:59 | <&McMartin> | (And is yet another reason why Clojure, with its ability to turn sets of lambdas into Java interfaces, ought to end up making Swing more usable) |
| 01:00 | <&McMartin> | In short: All GUI programming is terrible, so you pick your poison to find the one least toxic to you. |
| 01:02 | <&McMartin> | For me, that's been Qt4 and Swing, with GTK and WinForms being painful and wx being disastrous. |
| 01:14 | <&McMartin> | Ugh. On the other hand, the thing I actually have to do for The Other 90% is mostly concurrent data management garbage. |
| 01:16 | <&McMartin> | I guess I haven't used PyTk~ |
| 01:17 | <&McMartin> | I remember trying to use PyGtk for something once and it being easier in Swing, though maybe that was just Not Knowing The Incantation. |
| 01:18 | <&McMartin> | (Specifically, a subpanel that the user could resize as one can the columns in a file explorer, and in that subpanel was an image that zoomed to fit the user-selected size. I could not get PyGtk to not either force the size to the image's desired size, or ignore the user input entirely, staying either tiny or too large) |
| 01:19 | <&ToxicFrog> | If PyTk == Tkinter, my experiences with it have been, well, not good |
| 01:19 | <&McMartin> | Yeah, that |
| 01:19 | <&McMartin> | The thing it ships with |
| 01:20 | <&ToxicFrog> | There are some odd omissions in the documentation, error handling is a clusterfuck and on at least two occasions I managed to get a non-deterministic Hello World button somehow. |
| 01:20 | <&McMartin> | Hee |
| 01:20 | <&McMartin> | Anyway, yeah. |
| 01:20 | <&McMartin> | The ugly Swing part is pretty much already done (that was the first 90%) - I can get a display that behaves identically to the Game Maker one. |
| 01:20 | <&ToxicFrog> | AFAICT the sole advantage it has over Everything Else* is that it comes with python by default. |
| 01:20 | <&ToxicFrog> | * everything else that actually runs, anyways |
| 01:21 | <&McMartin> | I guess I do have to sort out the animation stuff, but that is C&P code, IIRC. |
| 01:21 | <&McMartin> | "Spawn a thread that changes your frame state and calls invalidate() on you every $TIME_UNIT" |
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| 01:57 | <&McMartin> | Elch. |
| 01:58 | <&McMartin> | OK, I am multiplying abstractions. |
| 01:58 | <&McMartin> | I may be doing it wrong. |
| 01:58 | | * McMartin will write it up later and send it round for commentary. |
| 02:05 | <&McMartin> | (And this part isn't really Swing *or* Java, just "I want to divorce the UI from the game logic as much as possible") |
| 02:21 | <@gnolam> | <McMartin> Elch. |
| 02:21 | <@gnolam> | ... I am imagining you calling for a moose every time you say that. |
| 02:22 | <@gnolam> | It might be the mythical Refactor Moose. |
| 02:35 | <&McMartin> | Perhaps. |
| 02:36 | <&McMartin> | This also implies that upon consuming Tainted Meats in Nethack, in addition to becoming deathly ill, are also summoning moose) |
| 02:36 | <&McMartin> | There is clearly some aspect of moose culture I'm missing here, though; AFAIK "elch" was just "yuck" but with more germanic gutterals |
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| 03:07 | <@Haeroe> | https://lkml.org/lkml/2012/12/23/75 |
| 03:07 | <@Haeroe> | Possibly old |
| 03:07 | <@Haeroe> | Probably old |
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| 03:24 | <@Rhamphoryncus> | Haeroe: just to be pedantic, pulseaudio does have a bug there. It should keel over, not busy loop. |
| 03:25 | <@Haeroe> | Yeah, I don't think Torvalds was denying it as such |
| 03:30 | <@Rhamphoryncus> | His wording implied pulseaudio had no bug but I'm sure that wasn't the intent |
| 03:32 | <~Vornicus> | kkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkki |
| 03:32 | <~Vornicus> | ]'j |
| 03:33 | <@Haeroe> | Cat-like typing detected |
| 03:34 | | * Vornicus now has kitteh, typing one-handed. |
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| 04:44 | <@Rhamphoryncus> | Oh that's clever. Recovering data off the hd by copying it to the second hd (which is fine). sysrescuecd came with a file manager called emelFM2. Copied some relative symlinked directories (All Users and Default User) and it carefully adjusted them to still point to the old directories |
| 04:44 | <@Rhamphoryncus> | Mind you, that's via the linux paths. I have no idea if that translates into windows paths |
| 04:45 | | syksleep is now known as Syk |
| 04:47 | <@Rhamphoryncus> | Can anybody more familiar with modern windows tell me how comprehensive copying the Documents and Settings dir is? Is there typically anything stored elsewhere? |
| 04:52 | < Syk> | uhhh |
| 04:52 | < Syk> | documents and settings? |
| 04:52 | < Syk> | that's... XP |
| 04:52 | < Syk> | so not modern windows at all |
| 04:53 | < Syk> | there is a config thing on C:\, it's hidden and a system folder and I forget what it's called, but it replaced the old All Users folder |
| 04:53 | <@Rhamphoryncus> | It's windows7 |
| 04:53 | < Syk> | Vista/7 is Modern Windows |
| 04:54 | < Syk> | because they changed how users work |
| 04:54 | <@Rhamphoryncus> | All Users isn't a folder, just a symlink |
| 04:54 | < Syk> | is it XP or Vista+? |
| 04:54 | <@Rhamphoryncus> | It's Windows7 |
| 04:54 | < Syk> | oh okay then |
| 04:54 | <@Rhamphoryncus> | there's a sticker in the corner |
| 04:54 | < Syk> | apart from the C:\SystemData (i think it's called that?) and the User folder, there shouldnt be anything |
| 04:55 | < Syk> | maybe registry stuff |
| 04:56 | <@Rhamphoryncus> | alright |
| 04:56 | <@Rhamphoryncus> | 30 gigs copied so far. Much more than I expected |
| 04:57 | < Syk> | youre probaby copying your web browser's local cache too |
| 04:58 | <@Rhamphoryncus> | 450 gigs. How the fuck is there 450 gigs?! |
| 04:58 | < Syk> | wut |
| 04:58 | < Syk> | of stuff? |
| 04:59 | < Syk> | well, maybe a downloads folder? |
| 04:59 | <@Rhamphoryncus> | I might as well delete this and copy everything |
| 04:59 | <@Rhamphoryncus> | ... videos. Damnit |
| 05:00 | <@Rhamphoryncus> | She just got back from a trip to thailand. I'm sure she loaded it with movies |
| 05:06 | <@Rhamphoryncus> | watch me use mount --bind to hide the Downloads dir on a readonly filesystem :D |
| 05:08 | <@Rhamphoryncus> | Down to 171 gigs. Of which there's a Pictures dir with 123 gigs.. good enough for me |
| 05:12 | <@Rhamphoryncus> | Oh, and Documents and Settings is a symlink to Users |
| 05:12 | <@Rhamphoryncus> | Copying the real dir is much easier than copying a symlink :P |
| 05:12 | < Syk> | oh yeah that too |
| 05:13 | < Syk> | it's a hidden symlink though under windows |
| 05:13 | <@Rhamphoryncus> | they don't implement symlinks the same way |
| 05:13 | <@Rhamphoryncus> | But good enough for me |
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| 14:39 | <&ToxicFrog> | Aaaaaaaaa I defend tomorrow |
| 14:41 | <@Haeroe> | ToxicFrog: Woo! |
| 14:41 | <@Haeroe> | Good luck |
| 14:48 | < Syk> | defend what |
| 14:49 | < ShellNinja> | Earth. |
| 14:49 | < Syk> | ToxicFrog is flash gordon? |
| 14:50 | <@TheWatcher> | ... |
| 14:50 | <@TheWatcher> | Yes. |
| 14:53 | < Syk> | neat |
| 14:58 | <@Tamber> | Gordon? He's alive?! |
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| 15:26 | <@Haeroe> | Syk: His right to wear a top hat |
| 15:28 | < Syk> | in what context |
| 15:28 | < Syk> | in general or in a specific environment |
| 15:29 | <@Haeroe> | In an academic environment |
| 15:34 | < Syk> | ToxicFrog: you have my axe |
| 15:37 | <&ToxicFrog> | Sweet |
| 15:38 | < Syk> | just dont take it onto campus |
| 15:38 | < Syk> | you'll probably get arrested |
| 16:02 | <@Haeroe> | Fun fact: In Finland, you also get a sword after defending |
| 16:02 | <@celticminstrel> | ? |
| 16:02 | <@Haeroe> | Presumably for immediate application unto your thesis committee |
| 16:03 | <@Haeroe> | http://www.ts.fi/uutiset/kotimaa/223262/4/223263.jpg |
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| 19:15 | <@Tarinaky> | "Friend of mine told me about his Dad who had to create a random number generator in college back in the days of punch cards. He sequence punched all the numbers in the desired range, threw the box out of a 4 story window, and then collected the cards." |
| 19:15 | <@Tarinaky> | From Dilbert comments. |
| 19:25 | < Syk> | bahaha |
| 19:25 | < Syk> | i would get a box and attach a lawn blower to it for a couple of minutes |
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| 19:35 | <@Haeroe> | A lawn blower? |
| 19:36 | <&Derakon> | This is interesting: a visualization of the memory and audio output for the NES while playing Metroid. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c8uPdDT4mfQ |
| 19:36 | <&Derakon> | (Specifically, while playing a tool-assisted speedrun of Metroid) |
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| 21:45 | < ShellNinja> | Hmmm. git problem. I have committed (but not uploaded) a bunch of files. I want to exclude certain files from actually being uploaded/committed, because they are my saves, and I do not want to upload my saves. What do? |
| 21:49 | <@RStamer> | Why didn't you ignore them? |
| 21:49 | < ShellNinja> | I can ignore files? |
| 21:49 | <@RStamer> | Yes |
| 21:50 | <@RStamer> | man git-ignore |
| 21:50 | <@Tamber> | or `man gitignore` |
| 21:50 | < ShellNinja> | So what do I actually do in my situation? The files are committed. How do I uncommit them? |
| 21:51 | <@Tamber> | http://twigstechtips.blogspot.co.uk/2009/10/git-uncommit-revision-but-keep-chang es.html |
| 21:51 | <@RStamer> | I don't know of a clean way other than to reclone from upstream and manually apply the changes. |
| 21:59 | < ShellNinja> | Tamber: Thanks. |
| 22:00 | <&McMartin> | Well, there's git reset, too |
| 22:00 | | * ShellNinja couldn't figure out how to use gitignore in a sane timeframe (5 mins), so he moved the save file folder out of the mod folder, applied git, and moved it back in. |
| 22:00 | <&McMartin> | http://justinhileman.info/article/git-pretty/ |
| 22:05 | | * ShellNinja saves that next to the text file named 'git commands' in the programming folder. |
| 22:08 | < ShellNinja> | There, the newest version of my EU3 mod is uploaded. Now to wait for BrainMeats to maybe accept my friendzoning and then I'll try to persuade him to share the unreleased MiscMods version. |
| 22:12 | | ErikMesoy is now known as ErikMesoy|sleep |
| 22:15 | <&ToxicFrog> | ShellNinja: for future reference: if it's just the last commit you want to change, edit the index appropriately (for this probably git rm --cached) and then git commit --amend |
| 22:15 | <&ToxicFrog> | Alternately, 'git reset HEAD~something' to rewind the branch and then redo the commits. |
| 22:15 | <&ToxicFrog> | Note that you shouldn't do either of these if you've already pushed the commits. |
| 22:16 | <&ToxicFrog> | Aaaaalso |
| 22:16 | <&ToxicFrog> | .gitignore is handy, but why not just, say, not add the save files to the commit in the first place? |
| 22:18 | < ShellNinja> | Because I added the directory wholesale, forgetting that there was a subdirectory in there I did not want to add. |
| 22:28 | <&Derakon> | I generally just remove files that were never supposed to have been there, and don't worry about having a "clean" commit history. |
| 22:28 | <&Derakon> | E.g. "git commit foo .bar; git rm .bar; git commit .bar" |
| 22:30 | < ShellNinja> | Yeah, sure, but I didn't want to upload dozens of megabytes for no reason. |
| 22:36 | <&ToxicFrog> | Derakon: you probably want 'git rm --cached .bar' unless you want to vaporize it on the filesystem as well~ |
| 22:37 | <&Derakon> | TF: well, usually I do~ |
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| 22:59 | | * ShellNinja tries MoO2 in DOSBox again. |
| 22:59 | < ShellNinja> | Wow, it does actually run okay... if you upclock the cycles from 3000 to 200000. |
| 23:00 | | PinkFreud [WhyNot@NetworkAdministrator.Nightstar.Net] has joined #code |
| 23:00 | | mode/#code [+o PinkFreud] by ChanServ |
| 23:01 | <&ToxicFrog> | It tries to autodetect the CPU speed based on whether the game wants real mode or protected mode, but doesn't always get it right. |
| 23:02 | < ShellNinja> | I've never needed more than 20k before. |
| 23:05 | | * ShellNinja somehow fails, patching, looking at the directory. |
| 23:05 | < ShellNinja> | Heh. |
| 23:05 | < ShellNinja> | Patching failed because the patch filenames were uppercase, while the existing files were lowercase. |
| 23:05 | < ShellNinja> | This wouldn't matter on Windows or DOS, but I'm on Linux. |
| 23:07 | <&McMartin> | MoO2 was a late-era DOS game, that people were playing on Pentium 120s and stuff |
| 23:07 | <&McMartin> | Most DOSBox stuff is for 33MHz 386es, which were not appreciably faster in practice than the 1MHz 8-bit micros. =P |
| 23:08 | <&McMartin> | (But had enough memory that you could actually do what needed doing >_>) |
| 23:09 | <&ToxicFrog> | I thought dosbox automatically handled file cases. |
| 23:09 | <&McMartin> | Dosbox does. |
| 23:09 | <&ToxicFrog> | Yeah, it does. |
| 23:09 | <&McMartin> | patch(1) does not. |
| 23:10 | <&ToxicFrog> | For some reason I assumed he meant he was patching MoO. |
| 23:12 | < ShellNinja> | I am patching MoO2. The patch is just an archive you extract overwriting. |
| 23:17 | <&ToxicFrog> | Aah. |
| 23:20 | | * ShellNinja manually moved all the same-but-lowercase files out. |
| 23:20 | < ShellNinja> | This was a minor pain. |
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| 23:44 | < ShellNinja> | Hmm. This DOS version does not appear to have music. |
| 23:44 | < ShellNinja> | I liked the music. |
| 23:47 | < ShellNinja> | How is it that in the early game, the AI always beats me in space combat? |
| 23:47 | < ShellNinja> | I brought three frigates and a destroyer to kill a destroyer. |
| 23:47 | < ShellNinja> | The enemy destroyer killed everything. |
| 23:52 | <@Alek> | might be audio driver missing, incompatible, or broken. |
| 23:52 | < ShellNinja> | I have sound but no music. |
| 23:52 | <@Alek> | DOS games tend to require basic SoundBlaster drivers. |
| 23:52 | <@Alek> | ah. that's different. |
| 23:52 | <@Alek> | *shrugs* |
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| 23:53 | <&McMartin> | ShellNinja: Check your DOSBox config, make sure it's doing OPL2 emulation in software? |
| 23:53 | <@gnolam> | Again: can't you run it in WINE? |
| 23:53 | < ShellNinja> | If some bastard purposefully removed the music files, I will not be happy. I've had this happen before. Well, guess what, I enjoyed the soundtrack of Polanie, you dipshit corner-cutter! |
| 23:54 | < ShellNinja> | Why would I want to run it in WINE? |
| 23:54 | <&McMartin> | IIRC you can pick between "pretend you have a Yamaha hooked up, pipe that to the software MIDI synth on the host" and "simulate an Adlib card" |
| 23:54 | <&McMartin> | It's a DOS game. |
| 23:54 | < ShellNinja> | WINE is like the last ditch option for anything I want across platforms. |
| 23:55 | <@gnolam> | Because it works out of the box up to at least Windows 7, and you don't get the performance hit of DOSBOX? |
| 23:55 | <@gnolam> | McMartin: DOS /and/ Windows. |
| 23:55 | < ShellNinja> | The Windows version doesn't get the unofficial patch. |
| 23:55 | <@gnolam> | Ah. |
| 23:57 | < ShellNinja> | McMartin: OPL options are auto, default and 44100. |
| 23:57 | <&McMartin> | Hrm. That should let you do it. |
| 23:57 | <&McMartin> | One moment while I check my GOG version |
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| 23:59 | <&McMartin> | OK, I've got these settings: |
| 23:59 | <&McMartin> | mpu401=intelligent; device=default; sbtype=sb16;sbbase=220;irq=5;dma=1;hdma=5;mixer=true;oplmode=auto;oplrate=22050 |
| 23:59 | <&McMartin> | I'd recommend keeping oplrate up, though, it sounds awful on this system as-is |
| --- Log closed Mon Feb 25 00:00:29 2013 |