| --- Log opened Mon Jan 07 00:00:23 2013 |
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| 04:40 | <~Vornicus> | ok. saving. saving asks the Game object for a basic-types-only version of itself, that it then passes through json and saves off to the specified filename. |
| 04:49 | <&Derakon> | I would say generally that saving has the Game iterate over its objects and ask them for serializations, which it arranges. |
| 04:50 | <&Derakon> | The serializations would each contain a special key that guides the game in later deserializing. |
| 04:50 | <&Derakon> | E.g. every entry has a "className: foo" bit, and the game has a mapping of strings to class names that can be deserializeed with the rest of the entry. |
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| 05:31 | <~Vornicus> | which is technically how python's standard json serializer/deserializer works; you can give it a custom encoder etc that handle that. |
| 05:31 | <~Vornicus> | but as far as I can tell that device is spectacularly unwieldy |
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| 08:10 | <&jerith> | It's generally a beeter idea to have specific serialisation code for your data. |
| 08:11 | <&jerith> | (In a couple of our games, we actually stored all the internal state in nested dicts so that loading and saving was trivial. That only made sense because of the nature of the state, though.) |
| 08:21 | <~Vornicus> | jerith: I'm not sure what you mean by "specific serializationcode" - are you taking Der's side or mine or? |
| 08:28 | <~Vornicus> | also I dislike beets. :P |
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| 08:42 | <&jerith> | Vornicus: In general. I find that pretty much all serialise-arbitrary-objects things fail. |
| 08:42 | <&jerith> | Especially when you want to add new features but still load old data. |
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| 08:46 | | * Vornicus is still confused |
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| 08:51 | <~Vornicus> | So, here is my current plan: each game model class has a semi-serialization function. This function turns the object into a dictionary which can be used as a ** unpacker into the object's constructor. |
| 08:54 | <~Vornicus> | then deserialization is... relatively straightforward, and the constructors have huge heaps of defaults. |
| 08:56 | <~Vornicus> | Is this sanity? |
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| 09:36 | <&jerith> | Vornicus: Seems reasonable. |
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| 10:58 | <@Tarinaky> | Interesting... |
| 10:58 | <@Tarinaky> | (Python2) |
| 10:58 | <@Tarinaky> | In [2]: math.sin(math.pi) |
| 10:58 | <@Tarinaky> | Out[2]: 1.2246467991473532e-16 |
| 10:59 | <~Vornicus> | Welcome to the wonderful world of floating point numbers. |
| 11:00 | <@Tarinaky> | Honestly, I'd have expected the function to have done something strange and peculiar for multiples of pi. |
| 11:01 | <~Vornicus> | Real thing here is |
| 11:01 | <~Vornicus> | you haven't given it pi |
| 11:01 | <~Vornicus> | You've given it something very cloe. |
| 11:01 | <@Tarinaky> | Like if (input % math.pi) return 0 |
| 11:02 | <@Tarinaky> | Errr except not written by a monkey. |
| 11:02 | <~Vornicus> | ...yes. |
| 11:02 | <@Tarinaky> | I am distracted. |
| 11:02 | <@Tarinaky> | >.> |
| 11:02 | <~Vornicus> | No, you haven't actually given it pi. If you want your program to be perfect like that use an actual CAS |
| 11:03 | <@Tarinaky> | CAS? |
| 11:03 | <@Tarinaky> | Also: I didn't have a calculator to hand so I just used ipython as a calculator >.> |
| 11:04 | <~Vornicus> | Computer Algebra System |
| 11:05 | <~Vornicus> | wolfram alpha |
| 11:05 | <@Tarinaky> | As I said. I would have expected it to catch multiples of the approximation of pi being used as pi as a special case. |
| 11:06 | <@Tarinaky> | (virtual pi?) |
| 11:06 | <@Tarinaky> | I'm rambling >.> |
| 11:06 | <~Vornicus> | it's not that cool. |
| 11:06 | <~Vornicus> | also there's rather a lot of multiples of pi you'd want it to catch. |
| 11:06 | <@Tarinaky> | Doesn't the modulo operator work? |
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| 11:07 | <~Vornicus> | not by a long shot |
| 11:07 | <@Tarinaky> | Oh. |
| 11:07 | <@Tarinaky> | In that case nevermind. |
| 11:07 | <~Vornicus> | how do you expect it to catch pi/3 for instance |
| 11:09 | <@Tarinaky> | Oh, I wasn't thinking about that special case at all. |
| 11:09 | <@Tarinaky> | Zero is 'special' in that things that're expected to be 0 that aren't actually quite zero cause things to slowly float away. |
| 11:09 | <~Vornicus> | Thre are an infinity of constructible angles; here's one: pi/4294967295 |
| 11:10 | < RichyB> | Specifically, a countable infinity. |
| 11:10 | <@Tarinaky> | I was only considering the case of n pi where n is an integer. |
| 11:10 | < RichyB> | There are lots of those, too. |
| 11:10 | <@Tarinaky> | Yeah, but doesn't modulo catch those? |
| 11:11 | <~Vornicus> | not necessarily! |
| 11:13 | | * Vornicus pokes it a bit, trying to find one. |
| 11:14 | <~Vornicus> | You only have limited precision; you can end up in a situation where you run out of bits and end up with a big mess at the end. |
| 11:16 | <@Tarinaky> | Okay. I'm going back to #math to bitch about how much I suck. |
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| 12:03 | <@Tarinaky> | Herpaderpa derp. |
| 12:03 | <@Tarinaky> | How do I go from 1/(k+3)(k+4) to 1/(k+3) - 1/(k+4) ? |
| 12:04 | <@Tarinaky> | In my notes I've written that they're equal. |
| 12:04 | <@Tarinaky> | And but a square around it. |
| 12:04 | <@Tarinaky> | And it's essential to solving this problem... |
| 12:04 | <@Tarinaky> | But I have no idea where the hell it's come from. |
| 12:08 | <@Tarinaky> | More technology than they took to the moon and I still can't take notes worth crap. |
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| 12:29 | <@TheWatcher> | Tarinaky: that's a partial fractional expansion |
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| 16:21 | <@Tarinaky> | Really? |
| 16:22 | <@Tarinaky> | I need to install 32bit python for a package I want to play with but when I launch the msi for 32bit Python 2.7 it asks me if I want to reinstall Python... |
| 16:22 | <@Tarinaky> | I just want a fucking zip file. |
| 16:23 | <@Azash> | Tarinaky: 1/(k+3)(k+4) = 1/(k+3) - 1/(k+4) | *(k+3)(k+4) |
| 16:23 | <@Azash> | 1 = (k+4) - (k+3) |
| 16:24 | <&McMartin> | -> 1 = 1 |
| 16:25 | <&ToxicFrog> | ...my laptop fan is making really alarming noises. |
| 16:25 | <&ToxicFrog> | I think it may have inhaled a feather. |
| 16:25 | <&McMartin> | \o/? |
| 16:25 | <@Tarinaky> | I don't suppose python has something built in to make it pretend to be 32bit for modules? |
| 16:26 | <&McMartin> | Loading 32-bit DLLs into a 64-bit executable basically never works anywhere, AIUI |
| 16:27 | <@Tarinaky> | Python won't let me install a 32bit version of itself. |
| 16:27 | <@Tarinaky> | Because they only ship a sodding msi that very helpfully points out it's already installed :/ |
| 16:27 | | * Tarinaky *glares* |
| 16:27 | <&McMartin> | Do you have a 64-bit version of the same files in the same location? |
| 16:28 | <&McMartin> | Because yeah, that doesn't work |
| 16:28 | <@Tarinaky> | I want to install 32bit python somewhere else. |
| 16:28 | <@Tarinaky> | Like c:\python2.7_32 |
| 16:28 | <&McMartin> | They *should* give 32 and 64 bit MSIs diffrent product codes, so shame on them |
| 16:30 | <@Tarinaky> | I bet it actually uses the registery as well to work out what directories it needs to shit all over :/ |
| 16:30 | | * McMartin does a quick check of MSI command line options |
| 16:30 | <&McMartin> | Pretty sure not, for Python, since different versions go in different places |
| 16:30 | <&McMartin> | Registry should just be for the uninstaller and for file assocs |
| 16:31 | <&McMartin> | Hrm |
| 16:31 | <&McMartin> | MSIExec lacks some options InstallShield seems to have. |
| 16:31 | <@Tarinaky> | In that case, can someone archive me up a flat working directory? |
| 16:31 | <&McMartin> | Don't have windows access just now, I'm afraid, but... |
| 16:32 | <&McMartin> | Oh wait, there it is |
| 16:32 | <&McMartin> | msiexec /a whatever.msi |
| 16:33 | <&McMartin> | This is the "administrator installation" option, which is to say, it extracts the files and lets you do the rest |
| 16:34 | <@Tarinaky> | Ahah. |
| 16:34 | <@Tarinaky> | Does it tarbomb or does it go into a folder? |
| 16:35 | <&McMartin> | Best to assume it will tarbomb, I expect |
| 16:35 | <&McMartin> | (I assume it depends on the contents, as per tar and zip) |
| 16:35 | <&McMartin> | But it also appears to write out a modified MSI? |
| 16:36 | | * McMartin has never used this before. It is not *intended* to be an extractor, that's just a side effect |
| 16:36 | <@Tarinaky> | Also: nope. |
| 16:36 | <&McMartin> | Whut |
| 16:36 | <@Tarinaky> | It prompted me that python.exe was in use. |
| 16:36 | <&McMartin> | OK, they're doing something *wildly* fucked up |
| 16:36 | <@Tarinaky> | I suspect it has now made a complete pigs ear of everything >.> |
| 16:36 | <&McMartin> | msiexec /a is explicitly not supposed to touch the system in the stock case |
| 16:37 | <@Tarinaky> | "Administrative install - Installs a product on the network" |
| 16:37 | <&McMartin> | Yeah, that's a lie, as it happens |
| 16:37 | <&McMartin> | Here's the discussion I've found: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/5564619/what-is-the-purpose-of-administrative -installation-initiated-using-msiexec-a |
| 16:38 | <&McMartin> | I've only previously encountered it in workflows involving VMware Workstation 5.5, before they switched over to using InstallShield. |
| 16:38 | <&McMartin> | (Where it was "hit it into a temporary directory and pull what you need from there") |
| 16:39 | <&McMartin> | Creating the admin image should be completely independent of the running system's setup unless something has gone *massively* wrong. |
| 16:39 | <&McMartin> | MS imagined this would be "put the files on a share and then everyone will install from first use", but, um |
| 16:39 | <&McMartin> | Disk sizes increased faster than bandwidth did, so. |
| 16:40 | <&McMartin> | But if the installer is cutting out because of what's running on the "share", that's the Python Foundation's fault. |
| 16:41 | <@Tarinaky> | Ahah. |
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| 16:42 | <&McMartin> | Probably easiest to have someone with 32-bit 2.7 installed to zip stuff up |
| 16:42 | <@Tarinaky> | I'm trying to uninstall 64bit python. |
| 16:42 | <@Tarinaky> | It's not letting me. |
| 16:42 | <@Tarinaky> | :/ |
| 16:42 | <@Tarinaky> | "I'm sorry, I can't let you do that dave. |
| 16:42 | | * Syk[werk] hands Tarinaky a Windows install disk |
| 16:42 | < Syk[werk]> | one does not simply uninstall software on Windows |
| 16:42 | <&McMartin> | Sure one does. |
| 16:43 | <&McMartin> | However, one does *try* not to fuck up one's package manager. |
| 16:44 | <&McMartin> | When you say "trying to uninstall" do you mean "with the 32-bit MSI that is confused with it" or "through add-remove programs"? |
| 16:44 | <&McMartin> | Because the latter is Just Running A Program and you should be able to pull that out of the registry by search for A-R P's string... |
| 16:44 | <&McMartin> | ... which is probably MSIEXEC.EXE /x {horrible-guid} |
| 16:44 | <&McMartin> | And then you can purge that guid and all that references it from the registry |
| 16:45 | <&McMartin> | Probably wise to make a system restore point first, though~ |
| 16:46 | <&McMartin> | I'm guessing the 32-bit installer was somehow set up to fuck up the pre-existing install before checking to see whether or not it should. |
| 16:46 | <&McMartin> | (MSIs let you run arbitrary code) |
| 16:47 | <@Tarinaky> | If only Windows came with some sort of table of allocated files. |
| 16:48 | <@Tarinaky> | Then people wouldn't have to come up with these elaborate systems to determine whether something was installed or not. |
| 16:48 | <@Tarinaky> | </snark> |
| 16:49 | <&McMartin> | I'm not sure which part you think you're mocking |
| 16:49 | <@Tarinaky> | The registery and installers. |
| 16:50 | <&McMartin> | I mean, you could be talking about the file system, or you could be talking about a package manager, where it is entirely possible that an upgrade changes the location and name of every single file while still being conceptually the same product. |
| 16:50 | <&McMartin> | The "some sort of table of allocated files" bit. |
| 16:50 | <@Tarinaky> | None of these package managers for windows ever actually do any of these things because they're all incredibly hard to configure and change every version. |
| 16:50 | <&McMartin> | The latter this (package management) is in fact *exactly* the problem MSIEXEC thinks it is solving, but it does have to be met about 3/4s of the way, which is in some sense why you shouldn't use it. |
| 16:51 | <@Tarinaky> | So nobody ever uses them for anything more than a self-extracting archive with pain. |
| 16:51 | <@Tarinaky> | It'd be cheaper to just run dtrx while inserting needles into your scrotum. |
| 16:51 | <&McMartin> | ... you've never used a net installer that had a working uninstaller show up in Add/Remove programs? |
| 16:51 | <&McMartin> | You need to run better programs |
| 16:51 | <@Tarinaky> | But I guess Marketting can't sell that. |
| 16:51 | <@Tarinaky> | I'm lucky if Add/Remove Programs works. |
| 16:52 | <&McMartin> | Yeah, you need to stop installing terrible programs |
| 16:52 | <@Tarinaky> | Normally Add/Remove programs takes longer to load than removing the software from the registery manually. |
| 16:53 | <&McMartin> | Given that Add/remove programs is just enumerating that one registry key and then looking up and execcing "UninstallString"... |
| 16:53 | <@Tarinaky> | No. It has to go through the entire registery first to populate itself. |
| 16:53 | <@Tarinaky> | And given I very rarely run Add/Remove Programs. |
| 16:54 | <&McMartin> | I don't have it handy, but "the entire registry" is two keys, one for the user and one for the machine |
| 16:54 | <&McMartin> | It's like HKLM\Software\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\Uninstall |
| 16:54 | <&McMartin> | It's all there |
| 16:54 | <&McMartin> | By name (or GUID for rude MSI programs) |
| 16:54 | <@Tarinaky> | In that case why does it take so long to populate? :/ |
| 16:55 | <&McMartin> | It doesn't on my system :shrug: |
| 16:55 | <@Tarinaky> | Anyway, python 32bit is installed now. |
| 16:55 | <@Tarinaky> | Now to reinstall packages :/ |
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| 16:58 | <@Tarinaky> | As far as I am concerned - every OS sucks. |
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| 17:05 | <&ToxicFrog> | Tarinaky: yeah, Something Is Wrong. ARP opens instantly for me and takes 1-2 seconds to finish populating and sorting the list after opening. |
| 17:05 | <&ToxicFrog> | (with ~250 entries) |
| 17:05 | <&ToxicFrog> | Granted, some of them are a bit questionable, like the two entries for "AVWW Auto Updater" that are 273 and 398 GB. |
| 17:06 | <@Tarinaky> | In fairness, I haven't actually had any of these issues since moving to Windows 7. |
| 17:06 | <@Tarinaky> | It's just so ingrained after so long. |
| 17:07 | <@Tarinaky> | And the only reason I ever have to call Add/Remove Programs is to nuke something from orbit anyway. |
| 17:07 | <@Tarinaky> | Usually when irrate. |
| 17:07 | <@Tarinaky> | Video games are all installed and removed through Steam these days. |
| 17:08 | < ErikMesoy> | Well, new ones. |
| 17:08 | < ErikMesoy> | I still play a lot of old things that aren't on Steam. |
| 17:11 | <@Tarinaky> | They take up so little space you never uninstall them :p |
| 17:13 | <@Tarinaky> | A couple of the really good ones I already have archives of patched program directories. |
| 17:13 | <@Tarinaky> | Just tweak a config file so it knows to look for the game data in the right place and off you go. |
| 17:14 | <@Tarinaky> | I need a supply run. |
| 17:14 | <@Tarinaky> | Later. |
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| 17:58 | <@iospace> | woo, the PCI enum test code i wrote is sound, just formatting issues :3 |
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| 19:24 | <@iospace> | yay segfaults -_-;; |
| 19:25 | <&McMartin> | Boo |
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| 22:08 | | * simon` has gotten slightly out of touch with reality lately. |
| 22:09 | <&McMartin> | Hm? |
| 22:09 | <@simon`> | I'm handing in a project report tomorrow with a fellow student, and we're generating some diagrams of reversible circuits, and we are able to find LaTeX typos funny because the resulting diagram is clearly not reversible. |
| 22:10 | <@simon`> | the guy we're sitting with (who is writing about something completely different -- obfuscation of ELF binaries) doesn't see the humor, which suggests it isn't there. |
| 22:11 | <&McMartin> | Alternately, people who write about obfuscation of ELF binaries are humorless drones! |
| 22:11 | <&McMartin> | Have you considered this? |
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| --- Log closed Tue Jan 08 00:00:39 2013 |