| --- Log opened Tue Dec 18 00:18:26 2012 |
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| 00:26 | < ToxicFrog> | <McMartin> the rendering pipeline stalls there, and "number of final blits per second" is your frame rate |
| 00:26 | < ToxicFrog> | <Rhamphoryncus> Hrm. The semantics are inherited from the CRT era, where not having vsync meant you could blit halfway through sending the next frame to the monitor. That's not necessary these days (the time required to blit is negligible), but the semantics likely persist -- this is untrue; even on LCDs you can totally blit halfway through a refresh and get tearing |
| 00:28 | | * gnolam eyes ToxicFrog's colors. |
| 00:28 | | You're now known as TheWatcher[T-2] |
| 00:28 | <@Rhamphoryncus> | You can, but for the video card it's trivial to avoid |
| 00:29 | <@Rhamphoryncus> | And it doesn't magically produce better graphics |
| 00:29 | < ToxicFrog> | You're going to have to unpack that |
| 00:30 | < ToxicFrog> | Because IME, the video card doesn't "trivially avoid" it, which is why you need to turn vsync on, and tearing looks like shit |
| 00:30 | | You're now known as TheWatcher[zZzZ] |
| 00:32 | < ToxicFrog> | also |
| 00:32 | < ToxicFrog> | <McMartin> Quietly doing tripple buffering may be what then causes some games to try to set your card on fire. |
| 00:33 | < ToxicFrog> | I'm not greatly knowledgeable about this, but I thought triple buffering meant it filled three buffers and then blocked until the next flip()? |
| 00:34 | <&McMartin> | I'm not sure either; the triple buffering I'm aware of is actually for *more* primitive tech |
| 00:34 | <&McMartin> | But if it's "actual screen, and then two buffers for what the app thinks is the screen" it would have the effect of an infinite refresh rate |
| 00:37 | <@Azash> | Hmm |
| 00:38 | <@Azash> | So me and my roommate dismantled my old laptop in order to get at the hard drive |
| 00:38 | <@Azash> | Now I'm looking at the mousepad and wondering if I might be able to salvage it for some kind of project |
| 00:39 | <@Azash> | So uh, does anyone know a good resource I could use to identify small buses used to connect laptop touchpads? |
| 00:40 | < ToxicFrog> | On most laptops made since the rise of USB, it's just a normal USB connection wired straight into one of the USB headers on the motherboard. |
| 00:40 | < ToxicFrog> | If the laptop was still together you could run lshw or hdt to find out what bus the touchpad is connected to. |
| 00:40 | <@Azash> | Wired as in good-luck-removing-it-ed? |
| 00:40 | <@Azash> | I doubt I could, I haven't been able to get it to boot in years |
| 00:40 | <@Azash> | Hence salvaging the HD to image and recuva |
| 00:41 | < ToxicFrog> | Nah, it's usually one of those little ribbon cable thingies with a lockable plug thing |
| 00:41 | < ToxicFrog> | I don't know the technical terms |
| 00:41 | <@Azash> | Yeah it's like a white bus maybe half an inch wide |
| 00:41 | < ToxicFrog> | But typically you just pop a little plastic flap open and the ribbon cable comes free |
| 00:41 | | * Azash goes to check |
| 00:44 | <@Azash> | Yeah it came out easily |
| 00:44 | <@Azash> | Four connectors, like a smaller USB |
| 00:45 | < ToxicFrog> | It's probably actually USB, then, might even function as a generic USB HID device |
| 00:45 | < ToxicFrog> | Just need to figure out the pintout |
| 00:45 | < ToxicFrog> | *pinout |
| 00:46 | <@Azash> | Yeah looks kind of like it might be like a typa a |
| 00:46 | <@Azash> | type |
| 00:49 | <@Azash> | ToxicFrog: https://haeroe.net/laptop.jpg |
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| 00:52 | <@Azash> | You can see it connecting to the touchpad (on the flipped front panel) |
| 00:56 | | * Azash eyes the touchpad being stamped with "PATENT PENDING" |
| 00:58 | <@Azash> | It's.. It's a PS/2 touchpad? What? |
| 01:02 | < ToxicFrog> | Not uncommon on older laptops. |
| 01:03 | < ToxicFrog> | It manifests as a PS/2 mouse |
| 01:03 | <@Azash> | So it's converted to PS/2 somewhere? |
| 01:04 | <@Azash> | Well, I just need to find out what that bus is called and get a converter so I can plug it into an RPi |
| 01:04 | <@Azash> | And I have input sorted |
| 01:08 | < ToxicFrog> | Azash: it might not need conversion |
| 01:08 | < ToxicFrog> | PS/2 uses six pins, but under normal operation only four of them are connected |
| 01:10 | | * Azash ponders |
| 01:10 | <@Azash> | So the bus that connects might just be a PS/2 bus? |
| 01:13 | < ToxicFrog> | Might be, yes! |
| 01:20 | <@rms> | Tarinaky: So, TRP+RPG game, basically it started off as an SC mod (don't have the stuff for it anymore), then I got into WC3 for a bit and came up with the genius idea: SC-like game, but my RPG would hook into it and provide something similar to WC3's hero mechanic. So one player would play the RTS, another would be playing an RPG in the same game. |
| 01:20 | <@rms> | s/TRP/RTS/ |
| 01:21 | | * rms has no idea how TRP came out |
| 01:21 | <@Azash> | True Roleplay |
| 01:21 | <@Alek> | actually, isn't there at least one RTS+FPS out there? >_> |
| 01:23 | | * rms doesn't know of it |
| 01:24 | <&McMartin> | Didn't one of the Tribes games have some mode like that? |
| 01:33 | | Netsplit *.net <-> *.split quits: jerith, VirusJTG, @himi, simon`_, @Rhamphoryncus, @iospace, @celticminstrel, @rms, @froztbyte, auREAX, (+5 more, use /NETSPLIT to show all of them) |
| 01:33 | | Netsplit over, joins: @PinkFreud, VirusJTG, &jerith, @iospace, @Reiv, @froztbyte, @himi, syksleep, AnnoDomini, @celticminstrel (+5 more) |
| 01:35 | < ToxicFrog> | Alek, rms: off the top of my head, Tribes 2, Battlezone 1/2, Natural Selection |
| 01:36 | < auREAX> | ToxicFrog: PS/2 hardwired isn't uncommon, even on modern laptops |
| 01:36 | < auREAX> | my i7 quadro laptop has a hardwired PS2 mouse |
| 01:38 | < ToxicFrog> | Oh, and Hostile Waters, sort of. |
| 01:40 | < ToxicFrog> | (HW is an RTS in which you can jack into individual units and take direct control. BZ1/2, you are an individual unit but, once the appropriate infrastructure is built, can switch to an RTS interface. Natural Selection has an elected commander who plays it like an RTS and issues orders to the rest of the team, who play it like an FPS. Tribes 2 has an RTS interface that anyone can invoke and issue orders with.) |
| 01:45 | < ToxicFrog> | (oh, also Men of War and the RTS portions of Space Rangers 2: Reboot) |
| 01:55 | <@Reiv> | SQL Server: Temporary tables. How do? |
| 01:56 | <@Tamber> | not "CREATE TEMPORARY TABLE"? |
| 01:56 | <@Reiv> | TF: I still wish someone would do something NS-style but with a bit less RTS attached |
| 01:56 | <@Reiv> | Tamber: Well, er, maybe |
| 01:56 | <@Tamber> | (I know, I'm making the assumption that everything does SQL the same way.) |
| 01:56 | <@Reiv> | I know nossigk |
| 01:57 | <@Tamber> | ah |
| 01:57 | < ToxicFrog> | Reiv: how so? |
| 01:58 | <@Reiv> | TF: One of the most effective but still quite enjoyable 'RTS-ish' style things I ran into in an FPS was playing Counterstrike |
| 01:58 | <@Tamber> | Reiv, according to the interwobs: "They are created using same syntax as CREATE TABLE except table name is preceded by '#' sign." |
| 01:59 | <@Reiv> | We were playing dormitory LANs floor vs floor; it was the job of the first person who died, who then had access to a topdown map showing everything your team-mates could spot, to call out manouvers and target warning |
| 01:59 | <@Reiv> | I always kinda wanted an SF-ish game where you could lay down "Go here" and "enemy coming from there" style setup. |
| 01:59 | <@Reiv> | But without the basebuilding per se? |
| 02:00 | <@Reiv> | NS has this weird thing where the commander orders a turret but then you need someone to run over and actually /build/ it |
| 02:00 | <@Reiv> | Which feels like they smoked the RTSen a little hard, maybe. |
| 02:00 | <~Vornicus> | Lately I've been playing a lot of Populous: The Beginning, which is a great game but gets my remake brain going. |
| 02:00 | <@Reiv> | Vorn: You saw project GODUS yes? |
| 02:00 | <~Vornicus> | Nosir. |
| 02:01 | <~Vornicus> | PtB isn't like the other Populous games. |
| 02:01 | <~Vornicus> | You have a Shaman who wields the magic. |
| 02:02 | <@Reiv> | I see. |
| 02:02 | <~Vornicus> | Reiv: looks like they'll be short. |
| 02:03 | <@Reiv> | How far do they have to go? |
| 02:04 | | * Reiv eyes the numbers |
| 02:04 | <@Reiv> | I don't think they'll fall short |
| 02:04 | <@Reiv> | I think it'll be close, though. |
| 02:04 | <@Reiv> | They're at 80% halfway through their last-week surge, and started said surge at what looks like roughly 60% |
| 02:05 | <@Reiv> | Which is pretty much standard for going-to-make-it. |
| 02:05 | <@Reiv> | Not slam-dunk it, but make it. |
| 02:06 | <~Vornicus> | But before I can remake PtB I obviously have to get Galactic Vorntiers working to an acceptable level. |
| 02:06 | <@Reiv> | Vornicus: I am dissapointed by the lack of shiny GUI interface. |
| 02:10 | <~Vornicus> | By what's lack of shiny gui interface? |
| 02:14 | <@Reiv> | I am poking fun at your game. :) |
| 02:14 | <~Vornicus> | bah |
| 02:25 | <@celticminstrel> | Oh hey, ✓ is a thing. |
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| 04:38 | | * Vornicus thinks about computers and humans and math. Disregarding speed, there seem to be two things that change the way computers think mathematically: 1. computers think in binary, which among other things means there are no non-trivial multiplication table entries; 2. computers can handle many digits in one fell swoop. |
| 04:39 | <@Reiv> | Non-trivial multiplication? |
| 04:40 | <~Vornicus> | Consider the multiplication table: entries where you're multiplying by 0, 1, or 10 are trivial. |
| 04:41 | <~Vornicus> | In decimal that means that your multiplication table has 64 entries that aren't trivial: 2*3, or 6*7, or 9*5... |
| 04:41 | <~Vornicus> | in binary, the number right after 1... is 10. There's nothing in between. All the entries in the multiplication table in binary are trivial. |
| 04:42 | <@Azash> | I don't think ALUs think with multiplication tables or similar though |
| 04:42 | <@Azash> | It's just a complicated flow system |
| 04:43 | <~Vornicus> | A big part of that is that the multiplication table is an AND gate... |
| 04:44 | <@Azash> | Oh, you meant it the other way around |
| 04:44 | <@Azash> | Yeah |
| 04:44 | <~Vornicus> | Basically you just shift your inputs around and AND the lowest bit of one with the entirety of the other. |
| 04:44 | <~Vornicus> | and then add. |
| 04:45 | <@Azash> | I'm curious whether ALUs tend to implement it that way or if they just have a dense grid that takes two inputs and cranks out an output |
| 04:46 | < ToxicFrog> | Your search keys here are "ripple carry adder" (for the lies-to-children version) and "carry-lookahead adder" (for the one that's actually fast) |
| 04:49 | <~Vornicus> | Well, a 16x16 -> 32 bit multiplier, if you built it as a big table, would require 16 GB of space. |
| 04:49 | <~Vornicus> | So I don't think we're looking at grids. |
| 04:51 | <~Vornicus> | Carry lookahead is one of the places where, for reasonably sized numbers, computers do it differently than humans. |
| 04:52 | <@Azash> | What kind of grid are you talking about? |
| 04:53 | <~Vornicus> | mmm, actually I see what you're aiming at now |
| 04:53 | <~Vornicus> | You're doing shifting by just hard-wiring every shift. |
| 04:54 | <~Vornicus> | And then you have a word-size-wide bit adder at the end and so forth. |
| 04:54 | <@Azash> | http://fourier.eng.hmc.edu/e85/lectures/figures/74283.gif |
| 04:54 | <~Vornicus> | I'd actually bet that's what they do. |
| 04:54 | <@Azash> | Logic diagram seems to be the proper term |
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| 04:55 | <@Azash> | But, whatever the mapping to physical implementation is |
| 04:55 | <~Vornicus> | Can't do that for division though. |
| 04:55 | <@Azash> | Sure, but we weren't talking about division :P |
| 04:57 | <~Vornicus> | But yeah, I suspect they actually have a bunch of chains of bit counters or whatever the hell you'd want to call them |
| 04:57 | < ToxicFrog> | Azash: that is almost the blueprint for the physical implementation; each of those gates corresponds to a silicon gate-pattern and the wires correspond to microtraces. |
| 04:57 | < ToxicFrog> | The hard part is routing the wires so that they don't intersect. |
| 04:59 | <@Azash> | I'm reminded of that old heat/power/water problem |
| 05:00 | <~Vornicus> | K_3,3 is one of the two fundamental non-planar graphs. |
| 05:00 | <~Vornicus> | K_5 is the other. |
| 05:00 | < ToxicFrog> | (indeed, most FPGA-based prototyping setups will have software that can map logic diagrams like that onto the FPGA automatically) |
| 05:00 | <~Vornicus> | if your graph has one or the other, you might just lose. |
| 05:00 | < ToxicFrog> | Vornicus: ICs are multilayered. |
| 05:00 | <~Vornicus> | True. |
| 05:00 | < ToxicFrog> | The graph doesn't need to be planar for routing to succeed. |
| 05:01 | < ToxicFrog> | It's hard not because it's hard to find a solution, but because it's hard to find a good solution (let alone the best solution) - ie, the solution that minimizes trace length and layer count. |
| 05:03 | <@Azash> | What's K_5? |
| 05:03 | <@Azash> | Oh |
| 05:03 | <@Azash> | I see |
| 05:06 | <@Azash> | auREAX: I'm pretending to be asleep |
| 05:06 | < auREAX> | ( ???) |
| 05:08 | <@Azash> | I still have no idea what I'm supposed to do, this guy I was meant to start a project with on Monday has disappeared |
| 05:09 | < auREAX> | (._. ) |
| 05:09 | <@Azash> | If I don't hear from him by Wednesday morning I guess I'll have to tell the prof I'm flying solo |
| 05:09 | < auREAX> | wtf is 6am already |
| 05:09 | < auREAX> | ( ???) |
| 05:09 | < auREAX> | it's* |
| 05:09 | < auREAX> | I feel like it's 2am or so |
| 05:09 | <@Azash> | Yeah, 7 here, should get to uni at 9 so I decided to skip sleep |
| 05:10 | <@Azash> | Also auREAX, think we can discuss $PROJECT here? |
| 05:11 | <@Azash> | Oh nevermind, I just noticed |
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| 10:01 | <@Tarinaky> | rms: Sounds like a bigger project than I was looking for :/ |
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| 11:35 | < simon`_> | I've had two months of 30 hours TA work + 150% course load. I started skipping 1-2 nights of sleep a week, but my body started refusing that and now I sleep as much as I have to. |
| 11:36 | < simon`_> | s!(?<=30 hours TA work)!/week! |
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| 12:02 | <@Tarinaky> | Why is the dole office incapable of sending the form automatically that they're supposed to send automatically. |
| 12:03 | <@Tarinaky> | It's like they don't expect anyone who claims JSA to ever get a job :/ |
| 12:03 | | * Tarinaky grumbles. |
| 12:03 | <@TheWatcher> | They probably don't |
| 12:03 | <@Azash> | Dole offices as a norm are designed to be as frustrating as possible |
| 12:03 | < Syk> | they make you work for it |
| 12:03 | < Syk> | so to speak |
| 12:03 | | * Syk hides from the punbat |
| 12:03 | <@Tarinaky> | The dole office wasn't very frustrating. |
| 12:04 | <@Tarinaky> | When I had a place at Uni and was basically waiting for term to start/me to become a student I only had to put in a show of looking for work. |
| 12:04 | <@Tarinaky> | (Clarification: this was before my first year started so I wasn't yet a student and still eligible for the benefit) |
| 12:05 | <@iospace> | I'm bob dole |
| 12:05 | | * Azash doles out punishment |
| 12:06 | <@iospace> | :D |
| 12:07 | < Syk> | bah |
| 12:07 | < Syk> | i should probably eat something today |
| 12:07 | <@TheWatcher> | Tarinaky: I note that you're expecting competence from a government agency |
| 12:07 | <@TheWatcher> | This is never a good position to start from. |
| 12:07 | <@gnolam> | Tarinaky: Joint Security Area? |
| 12:07 | <@TheWatcher> | Job Seeker's Allowance |
| 12:08 | <@TheWatcher> | Dole money. |
| 12:08 | <@TheWatcher> | Unemployment benefit, whatever. |
| 12:08 | < Xon> | job seeker's allowance when you are still @ uni sucks because they force you to stop uni if you get an offer for even a really fucking shitty job |
| 12:12 | < Xon> | Tarinaky, also the reason centrelink tends to have long lines & shitty service is they are rather understaffed for the workload =p |
| 12:12 | < Xon> | welcome the the joys of running everything at +90% capacity |
| 12:13 | <@Tarinaky> | You're not allowed to claim JSA while at Uni. At all. |
| 12:14 | <@Tarinaky> | Even during the holidays. |
| 12:15 | < Xon> | they changed the rules then, used to be able to if you didn't qualify the other programs. shitty idea however |
| 12:16 | <@Tarinaky> | You get a student loan (which includes no funds or provisions for the summer break) |
| 12:17 | <@Tarinaky> | You /can/ claim JSA if you're on a part-time course. |
| 12:17 | <@Tarinaky> | But then you don't get anything for the tuition fee. |
| 12:17 | <@Tarinaky> | So you're still screwed. |
| 12:17 | < Xon> | (for example; the austudy stuff runs out after ~3.5 years for a 3 year course and the part-time doesn't actually factor in course loading /at all/ |
| 12:18 | < Xon> | so if you do less than 75% of fulltime as parttime you get utter fucked on the austudy program |
| 12:18 | < Xon> | that was 'fun' to discover |
| 12:18 | <@Tarinaky> | I don't doubt. |
| 12:19 | <@Tarinaky> | I owe the government over 17 grand. Which is a big number. My only consolation is it isn't real debt. |
| 12:20 | < Xon> | heh |
| 12:20 | <@Tarinaky> | Or rather, the government sold the 17 grand I owe them to a private company. |
| 12:20 | < Xon> | I'm down to owing 19 grand to the australian government. at least it's only indexed to inflation |
| 12:21 | <@Tarinaky> | I'm thinking seriously about moving to Europe anyway. Which will means there's a good chance they'll just forget about me. |
| 12:22 | < Xon> | just wait till they change the laws so they can claim that debt overseas =p |
| 12:23 | <@Tarinaky> | They already can, it's just they don't. |
| 12:25 | <@Tarinaky> | Unless you go out of your way and call them at your own expense to wave money in their face. |
| 12:25 | < Xon> | lol |
| 12:25 | | * Tarinaky shrugs. |
| 12:25 | < Xon> | does student loans get discharged due to bankrupcy in the UK? they don't in australia as repayments are based on a threshold before you need to repay anything |
| 12:26 | <@Tarinaky> | No. But your repayments are tied to your wages (through the PAYE system, hence why they're really shitty at claiming it from overseas) and it gets written off after so many decades. |
| 12:26 | <@Tarinaky> | Hence why it isn't 'real' debt. |
| 12:27 | < Xon> | same in australia |
| 12:27 | < Xon> | except I'm not sure what the cutoff for the debt being written off |
| 12:28 | <@Tarinaky> | Anyway. There's every chance I won't get a job. |
| 12:28 | <@Tarinaky> | And then I don't have to pay anything \o/ |
| 12:28 | <@Azash> | What are you majoring in? |
| 12:29 | <@Tarinaky> | Computer Science and Mathematics. |
| 12:30 | < Xon> | I used family friends to get a jb half way through my degree of computer science |
| 12:30 | < Xon> | job* |
| 12:32 | <@Tarinaky> | I don't really have any contacts like that so... |
| 12:32 | <@Tarinaky> | Plus I'm not sure I really /want/ a job >.> |
| 12:32 | <@Azash> | Academia! |
| 12:33 | <@Tarinaky> | Maybe. Got no money for it and I've been stuck as an Undergrad so long... |
| 12:33 | <@Tarinaky> | And there's no way in heck I'm staying at my current Uni any longer than I currently have to. |
| 12:33 | <@Tarinaky> | So got the "no contacts" problem again :p |
| 12:34 | < RichyB> | ...? |
| 12:34 | <@Tarinaky> | ! |
| 12:34 | < Syk> | i never went to uni |
| 12:34 | < Syk> | my uni entrance scores were terrible c: |
| 12:35 | <@Tarinaky> | I hated it so much I went to Uni twice. |
| 12:35 | < Syk> | I decided to do AP-style courses , on the advice of my parents and teaches. |
| 12:35 | < Syk> | teachers* |
| 12:36 | < Syk> | most of these courses were done by SIDE - aka the school for people in the middle of nowhere, or homeschoolers |
| 12:36 | < Syk> | i'd have been better off doing mainline :( |
| 12:37 | <@Tarinaky> | :( |
| 12:38 | < Xon> | Tarinaky, my uni had two different courses which where computer science which are near identical to each other (1 is missing a maths unit that the other requires). So if you fail at one course you can course switch to the other course have all the failed units drop out and then course switch back to computer science befoer graduating =P |
| 12:38 | <@Tarinaky> | I wasn't doing Comp Sci before. |
| 12:39 | <@Tarinaky> | I was failing Physics. For two years. |
| 12:39 | <@Tarinaky> | Two. Long. Arduous. Heartbreaking. Years. |
| 12:39 | <@Tarinaky> | =.= |
| 12:39 | <@Tarinaky> | Two years of my youth I will never get back. |
| 12:39 | < Xon> | computer science -> IT (aka computer science with 1 less maths -> computer science. only took 8 years parttime >.< |
| 12:40 | < Xon> | 4 of those years working parttime, which was a massively bad idea |
| 12:40 | <@Tarinaky> | My current uni's IT module is tailored as a way of getting rid of people who can't program. |
| 12:40 | <@Tarinaky> | So you can't change from BIT -> Comp Sci. |
| 12:41 | < Xon> | heh |
| 12:41 | <@Tarinaky> | Because the entire point of the former is we don't want you any where near anything even remotely resembling an interpretter ever again. |
| 12:41 | <@Tarinaky> | Go play with microsoft project. |
| 12:41 | < Xon> | the two coures are utterly identical at my univercity for some reason (but there was an IT-style course off in the business school rather than the computer/maths school) |
| 12:41 | <@Tarinaky> | (Those who can't do, manage! And those that can't manage, cheat!) |
| 12:41 | < Xon> | heh |
| 12:42 | <@Tarinaky> | Yeah. The school of business stopped offering Buisness modules for Buisness IT students this year. |
| 12:42 | <@Tarinaky> | So now the Buisness IT module has no Buisness. |
| 12:42 | < Xon> | haha |
| 12:43 | <@Tarinaky> | So it's literally just comp sci module that don't require programming. |
| 12:43 | <@Tarinaky> | Maybe some Sys Admin. |
| 12:43 | < ErikMesoy> | Hooooome! Just finished this semester's last exam in Python. Oh god lambdas. |
| 12:44 | < ErikMesoy> | Also, oh god fuckstupid "What does this code print?" questions that hand you 20 lines of obfuscated code that jumps around and calls composite functions. |
| 12:45 | <@Tarinaky> | That's why you annotate the question paper. |
| 12:45 | <@Tarinaky> | When you see jumps/calls you draw arrows and shit. |
| 12:47 | | * RichyB headdesk. |
| 12:48 | < simon`_> | on one weekly assignment in the compilers course here, people have to hand-run a recursive pseudocode-function that translates a syntax tree into MIPS32. the exercise itself is reasonable, but the expected output is horrible... i.e., not just the final MIPS32 value, but actually running the recursive function by hand which calls itself to something like a nested depth of 7 or 8. there are no neat notations for it, I think. |
| 12:48 | < RichyB> | I'm reading part of Plone 3.3 here. There's an email implementation with SSL support. |
| 12:48 | <@Tarinaky> | Worked for my A2 Electronics paper where we were given 2 and a half pages of fictitious byte code, a circuit diagram and a list of op codes. |
| 12:48 | <@Tarinaky> | >.> |
| 12:48 | <@Tarinaky> | Anotate the shit out of it! |
| 12:48 | < ErikMesoy> | a=1, p=2, data=['a'=a;'p'=p], f(x) = x**data[a] |
| 12:49 | < RichyB> | The SSL support roughly goes: connect to mailserver, send EHLO, is "starttls" in the extensions list? Turn TLS on. Otherwise, don't. |
| 12:49 | < ErikMesoy> | I forget the exact syntax, but the upshot of it was six lines to define f(x) = x**2 |
| 12:49 | | * RichyB headdesk, headdesk, headdesk. |
| 12:50 | <@Azash> | The proper solution is to only use TLS 1.2, and if it's not supported, call them and get mad on the phone |
| 12:50 | <@Tarinaky> | ErikMesoy: Heh. |
| 12:51 | <@Tarinaky> | I am still grumbling at the group project group. |
| 12:51 | < RichyB> | Azash: nah, the correct solution is to pass the handy provided "forceTLS" parameter. |
| 12:51 | <@Tarinaky> | Because now exams are the excuse for not doing anything \o/ |
| 12:51 | <@Tarinaky> | I want people to get things in a line this week, because exams are only going to become more pressing, not less. |
| 12:51 | < RichyB> | But as far as I can see, there isn't actually any way to get the rest of this code to actually pass forceTLS=True without monkey-patching the fucker. |
| 12:52 | | * Tarinaky sighs. |
| 12:52 | <@Azash> | RichyB: But does it force 1.2 or just TLS? |
| 12:52 | < Syk> | ok so google updated their apps |
| 12:52 | < Syk> | ...while i was ing the middle of working |
| 12:52 | < RichyB> | Azash: TLS. I don't particularly care about the difference between 1.0 and 1.2. |
| 12:53 | < RichyB> | No one's going to successfully execute BEAST or CRIME against this particular system, you can't get it to do anything with high enough throughput. |
| 12:53 | <@Azash> | I would have though it obvious my "proper solution" wasn't a serious suggestion, but.. |
| 12:54 | < RichyB> | You're in #code, everything deserves a reasonable response. |
| 12:54 | < RichyB> | "You should be requiring TLS 1.2" is indeed a valid, in-scope statement here. :P |
| 12:55 | <@Azash> | Yes, but what kind of respectable person would use a phone? The only entities worth dealing with maintain freenode IRC channels |
| 12:56 | < RichyB> | Phone? I said Plone. |
| 12:56 | <@Azash> | 13:50 <@Azash> The proper solution is to only use TLS 1.2, and if it's not supported, call them and get mad on the phone |
| 12:57 | < RichyB> | Oh, right. |
| 13:23 | < Xon> | <ErikMesoy> Also, oh god fuckstupid "What does this code print?" questions that hand you 20 lines of obfuscated code that jumps around and calls composite functions. |
| 13:23 | < Xon> | these questions are fun when you can demonstrate the lecture/teacher is using undefined functionality |
| 13:27 | | * Pandemic hands Xon a clue bat |
| 13:27 | <@Pandemic> | this should fix that |
| 13:28 | <@Pandemic> | and why would TLS not be supported |
| 13:28 | | * Pandemic is confusseled by this |
| 13:33 | | Kindamoody|out is now known as Kindamoody |
| 13:35 | < RichyB> | Pandemic: so, there's more than one version of TLS/SSL. |
| 13:36 | < RichyB> | There's SSL 2.0, which you will never ever use, because it's insecure and easy to break. |
| 13:36 | < RichyB> | There's SSL 3.0, which has a tiny handful of flaws, leading to attacks like BEAST, that can just about be worked around. |
| 13:36 | < RichyB> | There's TLS 1.0, which is almost identical to SSL 3.0, and is what most of the internet really uses. |
| 13:37 | < RichyB> | Then there's TLS 1.1 which closes more flaws and adds more ciphersuites, but no one ever bothered to implement TLS 1.1 so you will never see it in the wild. |
| 13:38 | < RichyB> | Then there's TLS 1.2, which adds a bunch of lovely (coconuts|ciphersuites) like Galois-Counter Mode and friends, and fixes a whole bunch of flaws, and which people are starting to actually bother to implement because the security improvement between TLS 1.0 and TLS 1.2 is bigger than between 1.0 and 1.1... and because, quite recently, people started demonstrating practical attacks that work against SSL 3.0 and TLS 1.0 |
| 13:39 | <@Pandemic> | hrm |
| 13:40 | <@Pandemic> | I know I configured exchange 2010 for TSL |
| 13:40 | <@Pandemic> | I forget which one |
| 13:40 | | * Pandemic goes to poke at the mmc |
| 13:43 | < RichyB> | I suggest googling to find out whether Exchange 2010 has TLS 1.2 support first. |
| 13:43 | < RichyB> | Lots of TLS libraries don't contain TLS 1.2 implementations. |
| 13:43 | < RichyB> | 2010 is far enough into the past that no one was interested in moving to TLS 1.2 yet. |
| 13:44 | <@Pandemic> | the certificate install will tell me what the running mode is |
| 13:44 | <@Pandemic> | then it is just research to se if I can harden it further |
| 13:44 | <@Pandemic> | True, but improvements have been made in exchange 2010 after SP1, and we are running SP2 |
| 13:44 | <@Pandemic> | so it /is/ possible that microsoft added that functionality hence |
| 13:45 | | * Pandemic likes to keep exchange up to date, avoides more issues that it creates |
| 13:45 | <@Pandemic> | than it creates* |
| 13:45 | <@Pandemic> | Also, I need more coffeecoffeecoffee |
| 13:48 | <@Pandemic> | heh, I'll have to ask the germans. They run the global edge transport box |
| 13:48 | <@Pandemic> | at mose all I have installed is the hub transport bit |
| 13:57 | < auREAX> | RichyB: actually |
| 13:57 | < auREAX> | openSSL has TLS1.1+1.2 since like |
| 13:57 | < auREAX> | 2 months? |
| 13:57 | < auREAX> | or something |
| 13:58 | < auREAX> | obviously TLS1.2 is the best |
| 14:02 | < Xon> | <RichyB> 2010 is far enough into the past that no one was interested in moving to TLS 1.2 yet. |
| 14:02 | < Xon> | win7/Win2k8r2 both have TLS 1.2 implementations from ~3 years ago |
| 14:03 | < Xon> | but it is a bug that Exahnge 2010 doesn't permit TLS 1.2 to be used if you enable it; http://support.microsoft.com/kb/2709167 |
| 14:05 | < Syk> | good old Microsoft |
| 14:05 | <@Pandemic> | oh trust me |
| 14:05 | <@Pandemic> | thats not the only bug...... |
| 14:05 | <@Pandemic> | >.< |
| 14:05 | < Syk> | haha |
| 14:05 | < auREAX> | for how long has gnutls had tls1.2 now? |
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| 18:16 | <@Alek> | huh. newbies. XD |
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| 18:53 | < RichyB> | auREAX: yeah, alright, I should have qualified that. Current OpenSSL has TLS 1.2, but the copies of it shipping in stable distros (e.g. RHEL and friends, Debian stable) don't yet. |
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| 21:56 | <@Pandemic> | any one familure with VBscript? |
| 21:56 | <@Pandemic> | I'd like some one to double check my work before I blow out a directory...... |
| 22:09 | < RichyB> | Nope, sorry, but I'm wildly familiar with "take a backup first" ;) |
| 22:10 | <@Pandemic> | lol |
| 22:10 | <@Pandemic> | oh, I've already done that |
| 22:10 | <@Pandemic> | and located a test target that won't hurt any thing :) |
| 22:10 | < RichyB> | For what it's worth, JScript runs in Windows Scripting Host too and is, um, less Visual BASIC-ey. ;P |
| 22:10 | < RichyB> | I mean, seriously, it doesn't even have a "V" *or* a "B" in the name ;) |
| 22:10 | | * Pandemic snrk |
| 22:11 | <@Pandemic> | my boss understands bv and not js |
| 22:11 | <@Pandemic> | vb* |
| 22:11 | <@Pandemic> | thus the language selection |
| 22:13 | < RichyB> | Familiarity is always a good reason. |
| 22:14 | < RichyB> | Curious as to what you're writing now. |
| 22:14 | <@Pandemic> | a script that will look at files on a server's hard drive and delete any files in one of 4 specified directories that is more than 45 days old. |
| 22:16 | <@Pandemic> | also I R sys-admin, not the best coder in the world |
| 22:16 | < RichyB> | Sounds harmless. Pastebin? |
| 22:17 | <@Pandemic> | I could email you the file, or txt there of, I'd rather keep it off the internet |
| 22:17 | | * Pandemic is paranoid :( |
| 22:21 | <@Pandemic> | ok time to flee home! |
| 22:21 | < RichyB> | Bai. |
| 22:23 | | * Tarinaky gets idea - ahah! |
| 22:24 | <@Tarinaky> | I think I figured out why I haven;t been able to replicate the success I had with that 4x game I made. |
| 22:29 | < RichyB> | You forgot to add blackjack and giggolos this time? |
| 22:29 | <@Tarinaky> | Planning. |
| 22:29 | < RichyB> | You forgot to plan for the addition of blackjack and gigolos? |
| 22:35 | <@Tarinaky> | No, wait. I lost it again :/ |
| 22:35 | <@Tarinaky> | Damnit >.< |
| 22:37 | <@Alek> | you lost the game? |
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| 23:13 | <@Tarinaky> | !1^(1/3) |
| 23:13 | <@Tarinaky> | !1**(1/3) |
| 23:13 | <@Tarinaky> | !pow(1,(1/3)) |
| 23:13 | <@Tarinaky> | Oh derp |
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| --- Log closed Wed Dec 19 00:00:32 2012 |