| --- Log opened Thu May 31 00:00:23 2012 |
| 00:45 | | * TheWatcher blinks, realises he can make this vastly easier with a simple change |
| 00:45 | < Rhamphoryncus> | Matrix math fail. I can get the translation to work right or the rotation to work right but not both at once |
| 00:46 | <&McMartin> | Rhamphoryncus: remember, the first is relative to the second. |
| 00:46 | < Rhamphoryncus> | I know |
| 00:49 | | * TheWatcher mwahahahahs, creates 4 classes in seconds he expected to spend hours on |
| 00:49 | <&McMartin> | \o/ |
| 00:49 | <&McMartin> | Code reuse or just Not That Hard After All? |
| 00:50 | <~Vornicus> | rham: don't combine them except via multiplication |
| 00:50 | < Rhamphoryncus> | Vornicus: I am |
| 00:50 | <~Vornicus> | Okay. |
| 00:51 | <~Vornicus> | (Having learned that one the hard way I figured others might do some derpery there too sometimes~) |
| 00:51 | < Rhamphoryncus> | I've got plenty of derpery going on |
| 00:51 | <@TheWatcher> | Because of previously mentioned simple change, all these classes really need to be is a constructor that calls the superclass constructor with a couple of class-specific values in the arguments. The superclass can then deal with the rest of the work. |
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| 00:52 | < Rhamphoryncus> | I added matrix*vector support. Results made no sense. Traced it through.. I was confusing row major vs column major in the Matrix class |
| 00:53 | <&McMartin> | TheWatcher: Mmmm. |
| 00:53 | <&McMartin> | Yeah, that's the kind of thing I do with closures >_> |
| 00:53 | < Rhamphoryncus> | I suspect there's similar still going on though |
| 00:53 | <&McMartin> | But it's a place where class inheritance gets the job done. |
| 00:54 | < Rhamphoryncus> | If matrix math is right to left then I should have a translation on the right (applied first), then a rotation to the left of it (causing the world to rotate around the new origin/camera position). Sound right? |
| 00:58 | <~Vornicus> | Um. Try the other way around. |
| 00:58 | <~Vornicus> | Just in case. |
| 00:58 | <&McMartin> | Rotation is around the origin. |
| 00:58 | <&McMartin> | So rotation post-translation is like swinging your model around on a lasso. |
| 00:59 | < Rhamphoryncus> | McMartin: that's the intent |
| 00:59 | < Rhamphoryncus> | It's not a model rotation. It's a camera rotation |
| 00:59 | <&McMartin> | Ah. |
| 00:59 | < Rhamphoryncus> | Vornicus: I've done that and it seems to be what I want, but it just means something else is broken |
| 01:00 | < Rhamphoryncus> | http://pastebin.starforge.co.uk/520 |
| 01:01 | < Rhamphoryncus> | Qalculate tells me that should be 19, 22, 43, 50 |
| 01:03 | < celticminstrel> | I think clang must be inlining have the standard library or something, because the debugger's stepping into library functions even when I say "step over". |
| 01:03 | < celticminstrel> | s/have/half/ |
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| 01:07 | < celticminstrel> | Somehow my shared_ptr is invalid. |
| 01:08 | | You're now known as TheWatcher[T-2] |
| 01:09 | < celticminstrel> | ie it points to an invalid memory location; I'm guessing one that has already been freed, but I'm not sure about that. |
| 01:10 | < Rhamphoryncus> | Augh. 131 instances of std::. The code is only 1002 lines total |
| 01:11 | < celticminstrel> | Huh? |
| 01:11 | < celticminstrel> | Oh. |
| 01:11 | < celticminstrel> | Well, you can always do using namespace std. :P |
| 01:11 | < celticminstrel> | Or using std::blah. |
| 01:11 | < Rhamphoryncus> | I should be doing "using std::cout; using std::endl;" |
| 01:12 | < celticminstrel> | I usually use the inclusive form for std but the specific form for boost. |
| 01:12 | < celticminstrel> | I also have one or two instances of "using namespace ..." in functions. |
| 01:13 | < celticminstrel> | Like "using namespace std::placeholders", because writing "std::placeholders::_1" is just stupid. |
| 01:14 | < celticminstrel> | And why doesn't it demangle template names? |
| 01:14 | < Rhamphoryncus> | After I fix this bug I'm going to take a serious look other languages. Although powerful, figuring out the incantations to do something and figuring out what's wrong when they fail has proven to use so much effort that even if I strongly dislike certain parts of a functional language it could still be more productive |
| 01:18 | < Rhamphoryncus> | In a way C++ is the perfect match for opengl. You debug them both in the same way: blindly |
| 01:19 | < celticminstrel> | I wouldn't say I debug it blindly. |
| 01:19 | | You're now known as TheWatcher[zZzZ] |
| 01:21 | < Rhamphoryncus> | celticminstrel: the problem is most of these errors are during compilation |
| 01:22 | < Rhamphoryncus> | Like getting 20 errors (plus warnings) from trying to do a template |
| 01:22 | < celticminstrel> | Most of those aren't too hard to fix. |
| 01:23 | < Rhamphoryncus> | If you recognize them |
| 01:23 | < celticminstrel> | Some are a bit obscure. |
| 01:24 | < Rhamphoryncus> | After a while I'm sure I'll recognize enough to know the likely source |
| 01:24 | | Derakon[AFK] is now known as Derakon |
| 01:25 | < Rhamphoryncus> | But until you reach that point you can't just search for that error message or paste it on IRC. You'd need to first strip it down to the simplest example. |
| 01:34 | < Rhamphoryncus> | step 1: make sure the printed form of your argument matrix is the same as the literal of said matrix |
| 01:34 | < Rhamphoryncus> | If you enter 1/2/3/4 and get back 1/3/2/4... |
| 01:39 | < celticminstrel> | ...is vec.erase(vec.end()) safe? |
| 01:41 | <&McMartin> | vec.end() isn't valid to dereference. That sounds bad. |
| 01:42 | < celticminstrel> | Bah, so I'd better check what find returns before erasing it. |
| 01:44 | < Rhamphoryncus> | Victory! |
| 01:50 | < celticminstrel> | Yay! |
| 01:51 | < Rhamphoryncus> | Now reading up on Haskell |
| 01:51 | <&McMartin> | I'd also recommend looking into OCaml if you're looking for something to implement Big Things in. |
| 01:51 | < Rhamphoryncus> | thanks |
| 01:52 | <&McMartin> | Also, I *guess*, the Gambit-C implementation of Scheme (a Scheme-to-C compiler) |
| 01:52 | <&McMartin> | I know Gambit's effective enough to make highly animated 3D games - QuantZ was written in it. |
| 01:55 | | * Rhamphoryncus writes that down too |
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| 01:59 | <&McMartin> | I've done Makefile integration for both Gambit and OCaml, so if you end up working with one of them let me know and I can send you a few templates. |
| 02:00 | < Rhamphoryncus> | I'm not going to be using make. I'll be looking into one of the alternatives later on |
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| 02:06 | < Rhamphoryncus> | Oh bother. I'll have to build updated haskell SDL bindings |
| 02:07 | < Rhamphoryncus> | .. wtf?! Haskell's opengl bindings claim to be opengl 1.5 |
| 02:08 | < Rhamphoryncus> | I doubt that's right. I shall investigate later. |
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| 02:12 | < celticminstrel> | If I need iterators to survive removed elements, a linked list is the only option, right? |
| 02:13 | < gnolam> | Define "to survive". |
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| 02:18 | < celticminstrel> | ie I can remove an element while I'm iterating through it without having strange things happen. |
| 02:18 | < Rhamphoryncus> | celticminstrel: Removing an element from the middle of an array causes everything after to get shifted forward. If you're doing that multiple times you're probably doing something wrong |
| 02:26 | < gnolam> | The current iterator is no problem: it = foo.erase(it) |
| 02:26 | < gnolam> | Other iterators to the same container... no. No matter what container you use. |
| 02:37 | < celticminstrel> | Gah. |
| 02:54 | <&McMartin> | Rhamphoryncus: Having done Haskell SDL, I'd advise against it for something like OTTD - lazy evaluation and self-updating frames *really* don't mix |
| 02:58 | < celticminstrel> | I'm using auto a lot. |
| 02:59 | <&McMartin> | ++ |
| 03:36 | < Rhamphoryncus> | McMartin: yeah, although I'm designing with threading in mind so there will be a lot of "calculate what's needed for the next frame, then everything switches to the next frame and sees the results" |
| 03:37 | < Rhamphoryncus> | I was afk for a while there but so far I'm surprised how positive I'm feeling from the haskell tutorial. (http://book.realworldhaskell.org/read/getting-started.html) |
| 03:38 | < Rhamphoryncus> | I think it helps that I spent time with C++ first and became desperate. Helps me look past my biases |
| 03:38 | <&McMartin> | Yeah, it's a great language. |
| 03:39 | <&McMartin> | But lazy evaluation means forcing results is surprisingly tricky |
| 03:39 | <&McMartin> | Which means you're likely to procrastinate on things until, like, the middle of VBlank. |
| 03:39 | <&McMartin> | Monads might help with that. |
| 03:39 | < Rhamphoryncus> | Yeah, we'll have to see |
| 03:40 | <&McMartin> | If you want a baseline once you're up to speed with SDL and friends I've got a HaskellSDL version of the Cyclic Cellular Automaton and Game of Life sitting here. |
| 03:40 | <&McMartin> | But I'm about to upgrade this machine! |
| 03:40 | <&McMartin> | So I'll see you guys once that finishes. |
| 03:40 | < Rhamphoryncus> | cya |
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| 03:57 | < Rhamphoryncus> | McM[laptop]: wb |
| 03:58 | < McM[laptop]> | Alternately, I could have downloaded the wrong image. -_- |
| 03:58 | < Rhamphoryncus> | that would suck, yes |
| 03:58 | | * McM[laptop] fires up preupgrade like he should have done in the first place. |
| 03:59 | < Rhamphoryncus> | So it occurs to me that I plan to back to disk much of my data (treat it like a database), which would largely influence what sort of lazy evaluation I get |
| 04:00 | < McM[laptop]> | Stated I/O isn't actually a forcing function -_- |
| 04:00 | < Rhamphoryncus> | meaning? |
| 04:00 | < McM[laptop]> | Especially if you stream it, code that looks like "slurp in file, send results as a big old list to functions" ends up being "do buffered reads as necessary as the program runs" |
| 04:00 | < Rhamphoryncus> | No, but writing back to disk should be |
| 04:00 | < McM[laptop]> | Kind of what I said |
| 04:00 | < McM[laptop]> | Yeah, that'll force it. |
| 04:01 | < McM[laptop]> | Writes Have To Happen. |
| 04:01 | < McM[laptop]> | But don't trust reads to mean you're reading right then. |
| 04:01 | < Rhamphoryncus> | Of course I won't want to write most of the time, but it'll still control my architecture |
| 04:01 | < Rhamphoryncus> | yeah, that hopefully won't be a problem |
| 04:03 | < McM[laptop]> | Even though it might not be usable for this project, learning Haskell isn't time wasted. |
| 04:03 | | * McM[laptop] <3 Haskell a great deal. |
| 04:05 | < Rhamphoryncus> | I'm going to operate on the assumption that it can be made to work, even if monads and all that aren't ideal, but I'll confront them only when I get to them |
| 04:10 | < McM[laptop]> | Monads aren't too bad when used normally, tbh |
| 04:10 | < McM[laptop]> | The code ends up looking distressingly BASIC/Python-like. |
| 04:12 | < Rhamphoryncus> | yeah, I figure. Sometimes imperative style is the right way to go ;) |
| 04:12 | < McM[laptop]> | You can treat it as "the imperative part" and it will keep you in decent stead for awhile, really. Monads are super-general, but the common case is pretty straightforward |
| 04:13 | < McM[laptop]> | This is not unlike continuations in Scheme, which are likewise insanely general but most of the structured uses of them are incredibly straightforward. |
| 04:13 | < McM[laptop]> | Clojure even uses one of those to hide the fact that it isn't tail recursive ;-) |
| 04:14 | < Rhamphoryncus> | Yeah, it's a functional language. Took something simple that they didn't like for ideological reasons, then invented a swiss army knife that let them reimplement it just like it was before ;) |
| 04:14 | < McM[laptop]> | There's a little more to it than that - Monads also unify it with list comprehensions and the Maybe type |
| 04:16 | < Rhamphoryncus> | Swiss army knife |
| 04:16 | < McM[laptop]> | Heh |
| 04:16 | < McM[laptop]> | It isn't *just* as it was before |
| 04:16 | < McM[laptop]> | But you'll see soon enough, I guess |
| 04:16 | < Rhamphoryncus> | Yeah, I wasn't sure about that word |
| 04:17 | < McM[laptop]> | The effect is to sharply conceptually segregate "the I/O parts" from "the computational parts". |
| 04:17 | < McM[laptop]> | But the lazy evaluation means it ends up in practice all shuffled together |
| 04:18 | < Rhamphoryncus> | yeah |
| 04:18 | < Rhamphoryncus> | But I plan to have such a segregation anyway |
| 04:18 | < McM[laptop]> | I think you'll find this pretty agreeable. |
| 04:19 | < Rhamphoryncus> | yeah, I'm optimistic :) |
| 04:19 | < Rhamphoryncus> | But easily distracted. Still only halfway down the first page |
| 04:19 | < McM[laptop]> | Heh |
| 04:20 | | * McM[laptop] goes back to his Python, having realized that he doesn't need to write this constant-prop pass after all. |
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| 04:35 | < Rhamphoryncus> | Is it just me or are these examples MUCH better with some whitespace? http://book.realworldhaskell.org/read/getting-started.html#x_O2 |
| 04:44 | < McM[laptop]> | Do you mean between list elements or...? |
| 04:46 | < Rhamphoryncus> | yes |
| 04:46 | < Rhamphoryncus> | [1, 3 .. 10] |
| 04:47 | < McM[laptop]> | Haskell does have significant whitespace, but that kind of thing lets you be pretty freeform. |
| 04:48 | < Rhamphoryncus> | I'm critiquing the tutorial, not the language |
| 04:48 | < Rhamphoryncus> | I already tried it in ghci ;) |
| 04:48 | < McM[laptop]> | Mm. |
| 04:48 | < McM[laptop]> | Heh |
| 04:49 | < McM[laptop]> | I personally kind of prefer [1..n] for simple ranges |
| 04:49 | < Rhamphoryncus> | I also tried pressing 'c' and 'C' to interrupt a loop and found that no, it really is ctrl-C |
| 04:49 | < Rhamphoryncus> | Yeah, with just two items that's okay |
| 04:49 | < Rhamphoryncus> | With 3 the punctuation blends together |
| 04:50 | < McM[laptop]> | Yeah, I can see that |
| 04:50 | < McM[laptop]> | I think I might still go [1, 3..10] |
| 04:50 | < McM[laptop]> | Treating ranges as units |
| 04:50 | < McM[laptop]> | Hmm, wait, that's 1, 3, 5, 7, etc, isn't it |
| 04:50 | < Rhamphoryncus> | But it's not a unit |
| 04:51 | < Rhamphoryncus> | exactly |
| 04:51 | < McM[laptop]> | Right. |
| 04:51 | < McM[laptop]> | nm |
| 04:52 | < Rhamphoryncus> | I suppose it's unnecessary to ask if the string type is raw byte, utf8, utf16, or utf32? It probably has them all and infers them like everything else? (And it's the char type, not the string type.) |
| 04:52 | < McM[laptop]> | Right |
| 04:53 | < McM[laptop]> | Uh, I don't have that machine handy right now |
| 04:53 | < McM[laptop]> | I did a UTF8 enc/dec system at one point |
| 04:53 | < McM[laptop]> | From memory, characters are conceptually UCS-4 but when you print them out it will do so in the current encoding. |
| 04:53 | < Rhamphoryncus> | I typed in a unicode character in ghci and it came out escaped sanely |
| 04:53 | < Rhamphoryncus> | UCS-4 or UTF-32? ;) |
| 04:54 | < McM[laptop]> | UCS-4, I suspect. I'm guessing it's wchar_t internally though I haven't checked the source. |
| 04:54 | < McM[laptop]> | Speaking of, I hear Java is actually UTF-16 now instead of UCS2. |
| 04:54 | < Rhamphoryncus> | UCS-4 is "well, it's 32 bits, and that's about the only semantic we enforce" |
| 04:54 | < Rhamphoryncus> | heh |
| 04:55 | < Rhamphoryncus> | I noticed C++11 has u8"UTF-8", u"UTF-16", and U"UTF-32". Makes you think MS won that one, eh? |
| 04:55 | < McM[laptop]> | Yeah, I'm guessing that this is pretty much it - that it's a stream of tridecaduplets internally. |
| 04:55 | < Rhamphoryncus> | .. of what? |
| 04:56 | < Noah> | 13-tuples? |
| 04:56 | < McM[laptop]> | Like octets, but 32 instead of 8 ;-) |
| 04:56 | < Rhamphoryncus> | wtf? |
| 04:56 | < Rhamphoryncus> | oi :P |
| 04:56 | | * McM[laptop] just made that word up. |
| 04:57 | < Rhamphoryncus> | So my WTF was entirely appropriate. Gotcha. |
| 04:57 | < McM[laptop]> | More directly, I suspect it treats strings as sequences of 32-bit numbers the same way Latin-1 treats them as sequences of 8-bit ones. |
| 05:00 | < Rhamphoryncus> | The main difference is in what misbehaviour it rejects |
| 05:00 | < McM[laptop]> | Noah: That would be triskadectets, right~ |
| 05:00 | < Noah> | Yea probably sure |
| 05:01 | < McM[laptop]> | Hrm. |
| 05:01 | < McM[laptop]> | Wouldn't a hypothetical UTF-32 be multiword for codepoints above 2 billion |
| 05:01 | < Rhamphoryncus> | Nope, all of unicode is limited to 0x10FFFF |
| 05:02 | < Rhamphoryncus> | The original proposal for UTF-8 could go larger but it's no longer allowed |
| 05:02 | < Rhamphoryncus> | Redundant forms for UTF-8 were later made explicit errors as well (for security reasons) |
| 05:02 | < McM[laptop]> | Ah yes, URL normalization attacks |
| 05:03 | < Noah> | Ahh, our forefathers of computing. "No one would ever do anything evil with a computer, so we don't need a lot of security boilerplate" |
| 05:03 | < Rhamphoryncus> | and database ones |
| 05:03 | < Rhamphoryncus> | Noah: forefathers? That's still par for most programmers :P |
| 05:03 | < Noah> | Well, yes, but now we're aware of it, we just don't care |
| 05:04 | < Rhamphoryncus> | Most are just too ignorant or lazy |
| 05:04 | < Noah> | It's more like "Someone's going to break this anyway, so why bother with the boilerplate" |
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| 05:28 | < Rhamphoryncus> | "Why care about types?" If they'd tried PHP they wouldn't be asking that ;) |
| 05:29 | < Rhamphoryncus> | (actually a header from the tutorial/book) |
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| 17:13 | < celticminstrel> | Did C++11 officially include C99's new initializer syntax? |
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| 18:55 | <~Vornicus> | finally got around to doing it out, 3 minutes 45 seconds from Link's House to Hyrule Castle. |
| 18:56 | <~Vornicus> | and rham, who I was discussing scale issues with, is not here. |
| 19:01 | <~Vornicus> | 2m30s on Epona, no hurrying. |
| 19:02 | <~Vornicus> | or rather not hyrule castle, but the load screen into castle town south. |
| 19:02 | <~Vornicus> | THe latter includes about 15 seconds of jogging on foot to get from the bottom of the stairs at the bridge into the door. |
| 19:04 | <~Vornicus> | I also crashed into a wall, costing me 3 seconds, and got attacked by a bird which I don't think cost any time, while on the horse. |
| 19:09 | | Kindamoody is now known as Kindamoody[zZz] |
| 19:10 | <~Vornicus> | it's funny, the bird couldn't quite catch up while I was on foot. |
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| 23:26 | < celticminstrel> | Why does Xcode not consider structs as equivalent to classes for the purposes of the function menu... |
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| 23:51 | | You're now known as TheWatcher[t-2] |
| 23:55 | | You're now known as TheWatcher[zZzZ] |
| --- Log closed Fri Jun 01 00:00:39 2012 |