| --- Log opened Wed May 09 00:00:44 2012 |
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| 02:49 | < Reiver> | so SQL |
| 02:49 | <@Tamber> | Why so SQL? |
| 02:49 | < Reiver> | Has the most gorgeous analytic functions. |
| 02:50 | < Reiver> | A pity they apparently do not play well with each other! |
| 02:53 | <@Tamber> | But that would make things /easy/. And we can't have that. |
| 02:54 | < Reiver> | using rank() where rank = 1 is orders of magnitude faster than using max() |
| 02:54 | < Reiver> | ...until you use two of them against the same table. |
| 02:55 | < Reiver> | As WTF goes, that's quite the doozy! |
| 02:55 | <@Tamber> | ... |
| 02:56 | < Reiver> | I know. Cool innit? |
| 03:03 | | Kindamoody is now known as Kindamoody|coding |
| 03:35 | <@ToxicFrog> | Which SQL? |
| 03:35 | <@ToxicFrog> | Because there is a lot of variation between them. |
| 03:37 | < Reiver> | Oracle. |
| 03:37 | < Reiver> | (Oh god so much oracle) |
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| 05:44 | | Kindamoody|coding is now known as Kindamoody |
| 06:08 | | You're now known as TheWatcher |
| 06:13 | | * TheWatcher readsup, notes he has never actually trusted oracle's database since he worked with an ex-oracle developer, and had to deal with his code quality >.> |
| 06:14 | < Reiver> | oh hell |
| 06:14 | < Reiver> | Oracle tools are buggy as shit |
| 06:14 | < Reiver> | The DB itself is pretty decent, though. |
| 06:14 | < Reiver> | Just everything on top of it to make it pretty to end user ;_; |
| 06:24 | | Kindamoody is now known as Kindamoody|breakfast |
| 06:26 | | ErikMesoy|sleep is now known as ErikMesoy |
| 06:28 | <~Vornicus> | Yeah, I worked briefly with the oracle, uh, well it wanted to be Access |
| 06:28 | <~Vornicus> | except that Access somehow doesn't suck |
| 06:31 | < Reiver> | Was this the OBIEE? |
| 06:31 | < Reiver> | Or the BI Publisher? |
| 06:31 | < Reiver> | Or the... god I forget just shoot me now |
| 06:32 | <~Vornicus> | The one that built, uh, okay so it was a java applet, with a windowing environment inside it |
| 06:32 | < Reiver> | Applet as in in-browser? |
| 06:32 | <~Vornicus> | yeah |
| 06:33 | < Reiver> | OBIEE. |
| 06:33 | <~Vornicus> | Oh my god it was nothing but pain |
| 06:33 | < Reiver> | I use that sucker more thn is good for my health |
| 06:33 | < Reiver> | I have worked out a system to dev in it though |
| 06:33 | < Reiver> | ... using two browsers simultaneously >.< |
| 06:34 | <~Vornicus> | I couldn't get it to automatically fill a combo box |
| 06:34 | < Reiver> | Chrome is massively more responsive and less quirky when it comes to setup and layout |
| 06:34 | < Reiver> | ... but has a bad habit of caching settings. |
| 06:34 | < Reiver> | So I use IE for the data source stuff. |
| 06:34 | <~Vornicus> | This is a problem that, in Access, takes about 30 seconds if you know what you want in the box. |
| 06:34 | < Reiver> | It takes about 45 in OBIEE. |
| 06:35 | <~Vornicus> | I couldn't find anything at all to do it |
| 06:35 | < Reiver> | But it has to be the right 45 seconds, and they have to be in IE not Chrome. Yes, it's that bad. :P |
| 06:35 | < Reiver> | Parameters + Value Lists |
| 06:35 | < Reiver> | Set th list frst, then alter parameter type |
| 06:35 | <~Vornicus> | fortunately I do all my database work in python nowadays |
| 06:35 | <~Vornicus> | python to html even |
| 06:36 | < Reiver> | envy |
| 06:36 | < Reiver> | On the other hand I'm getting paid to use this |
| 06:36 | <~Vornicus> | yeah, I just poke at it for naptime |
| 06:36 | < Reiver> | Which does help ameliorate the pain somewhat. |
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| 06:45 | < Reiver> | naptime? |
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| 06:50 | <~Vornicus> | Well. when I feel like doing that, anyway |
| 06:51 | < Reiver> | Aha |
| 06:51 | < Reiver> | yes indeed |
| 06:51 | < Reiver> | hey vorn |
| 06:51 | < Reiver> | What I want and have wanted for too long |
| 06:51 | < Reiver> | Is a decent probability machine. |
| 06:52 | <~Vornicus> | "probability machine"? |
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| 06:56 | <~Vornicus> | he'll probably tell me when he gets back. |
| 06:56 | <~Vornicus> | Let me ask the machine. |
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| 06:59 | <~Vornicus> | "probability machine"? |
| 07:04 | | You're now known as TheWatcher[afk] |
| 07:05 | | * Vornicus pokes Reiver until he explains himself. |
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| 07:07 | < Reiver> | Stupid touchy touchpads |
| 07:07 | | * Vornicus continues to poke reiver |
| 07:07 | < Reiver> | "Hey vorn, what are the odds of getting three successes out of four dice on a 3+?" |
| 07:08 | <~Vornicus> | heh |
| 07:08 | <~Vornicus> | Exactly, or at least? |
| 07:08 | < Reiver> | Optional, unless it is hard. |
| 07:08 | < Reiver> | In this case, at least. |
| 07:09 | <~Vornicus> | at least: 1 - binomdist(2, 4, 4/6, true) = 0.592592593 |
| 07:10 | <~Vornicus> | Excel is your friend~ |
| 07:11 | < Reiver> | I know |
| 07:11 | < Reiver> | I more mean a /collection/ of such stuff |
| 07:12 | < Reiver> | So you can ask the odds in general? |
| 07:12 | | Kindamoody|breakfast is now known as Kindamoody |
| 07:12 | <~Vornicus> | A lot of these are very simple |
| 07:12 | <~Vornicus> | And the ones that are hard tend to be in the realm of "I need ten minutes to get the computer to fully understand what it is undertaking" |
| 07:13 | <~Vornicus> | often this means a rather detailed expedition into the inner workings of the system |
| 07:14 | <~Vornicus> | I could never have, for instance, taught a computer to interpret ilf's "matches" dice rolling system |
| 07:14 | <~Vornicus> | that needed a human and a lot of inspection |
| 07:15 | <~Vornicus> | anyway, sleep |
| 07:16 | < Reiver> | matches? |
| 07:16 | < Reiver> | nini! |
| 07:16 | < Reiver> | (It's nice to be back) |
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| 10:53 | < Tarinaky> | I am currently trying to see if I really need a taskbar to use OpenBox. So far? Not really. |
| 10:53 | < Tarinaky> | But then I mostly just use OpenBox as a prettier version of screen :/ |
| 11:08 | < froztbyte> | haha |
| 11:08 | < froztbyte> | that's not necessarily bad |
| 11:25 | < Tarinaky> | I wish I remembered how I tortured autofs into allowing me to access usb keys as /media/disk-label. |
| 11:25 | < Tarinaky> | Anyway. Gotta run~ |
| 11:29 | | Noah [maoranma@Nightstar-0b54271b.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [[NS] Quit: ] |
| 11:36 | <@Tamber> | ...ouch. |
| 11:36 | <@Tamber> | 11:36:26 up 2 days, 11:02, 0 users, load average: 84.16, 61.09, 28.03 |
| 11:37 | <@Tamber> | And this is what happens when you mash enter before adding a value to "make -j" |
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| 11:39 | < Tarinaky> | Back. |
| 11:40 | <@Tamber> | Wibs. |
| 11:42 | < froztbyte> | Tamber: I'm guessing you don't have many cores available |
| 11:42 | <@Tamber> | 4 cores. |
| 11:42 | <@Tamber> | Which, compared to however many processes make spawned, is "not many" |
| 11:43 | < froztbyte> | haha |
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| 11:44 | < Tarinaky> | Gah. I'm going to end up swearing if this continues. |
| 11:44 | < Tarinaky> | It seems that my mouses settings have changed when I reinstalled Linux. |
| 11:44 | < Tarinaky> | Now I can actually click with the touchpad. |
| 11:44 | < Tarinaky> | This is undesirable :/ |
| 11:45 | < Tarinaky> | Since now I'm clicking on anything I have the misfortune of looking at. >.> |
| 11:46 | < froztbyte> | should be a quick fix |
| 11:46 | < froztbyte> | although I can't say I've run into that problem in a long, looooong time |
| 11:56 | < Tarinaky> | It wouldn't be so bad, except my jumper tends to 'click' it while I'm typing. |
| 11:56 | < Tarinaky> | >.> |
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| 14:33 | < froztbyte> | <tenth1> So, when RabbitMQ just up and dies |
| 14:33 | < froztbyte> | <tenth1> Are there recommended ways to read the entrails? |
| 14:33 | < froztbyte> | best expression is best |
| 14:33 | < froztbyte> | from now on I'm calling all coredumps and crashlogs 'entrails' |
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| 16:43 | < ErikMesoy> | Installing memory chips. They appear to require quite a lot of force exerted to get them into slots. Is this normal? Should I be concerned about breaking them? |
| 16:44 | < gnolam> | They do require a bit of force. But make sure you've opened up the slots properly anyway. |
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| 16:47 | <@ToxicFrog> | ErikMesoy: yes, they often do, but also check: |
| 16:47 | < ErikMesoy> | Yes, I have opened the side fasteners. |
| 16:47 | <@ToxicFrog> | - that the little latches on the sides are open |
| 16:47 | <@ToxicFrog> | - that you are putting the stick in the right way around |
| 16:47 | <@ToxicFrog> | - that it's the right generation of memory |
| 16:47 | < ErikMesoy> | All three checked in detail. It's the pressure I'm concerned about. |
| 16:48 | < Rhamphoryncus> | It can also help to put a little bit of pressure on the latches to close them as you go |
| 16:49 | < Rhamphoryncus> | Since they also go underneath the stick to help removal and they snap in place once the stick is in all the way |
| 16:49 | <~Vornicus> | usually the way I put in memory is to press on the latches more than the stick |
| 16:50 | < ErikMesoy> | All right, pushed them down far enough that I could close the side fasteners again. The near-middle separator fits into the chip's gap, the specs match... |
| 16:55 | < ErikMesoy> | It's working! |
| 17:06 | <~Vornicus> | hooray |
| 17:19 | < gnolam> | froztbyte: heh |
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| 17:22 | < ErikMesoy> | Reiver|AFK: http://www.diku.dk/hjemmesider/ansatte/torbenm/Troll/ probability machine language |
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| 21:38 | <@Tamber> | "PHP Devs Lob Second Patch At Super-Critical CGI Bug" Will this one stick? Or will they just have to keep slinging mud at it until nobody can find that particular vulnerability because of all the layers of crap stuck to it? |
| 21:39 | <@Tamber> | (Okay, that made more sense in my head~ I need more tea, obviously. And the PHP devs need more mud.) |
| 21:53 | < Namegduf> | The second one. |
| 22:13 | < Noah> | Not enough mud on earth. |
| 22:15 | <@Tamber> | Is there enough concrete to bury PHP as hazardous material? |
| 22:15 | <@TheWatcher[afk]> | Maybe |
| 22:15 | <@TheWatcher[afk]> | Provided you start mining asteroids~ |
| 22:19 | <@Tamber> | Bah, probably easier to just fire it and all its developers into the sun. |
| 22:24 | | You're now known as TheWatcher |
| 22:24 | <@TheWatcher> | Well, I suppose if you want to pollute, you may as well think big... |
| 22:26 | <@rms> | Meh, the bug only affects people who are using the moron-way of using PHP (CGI) or who are using suexec. |
| 22:26 | <@rms> | That isn't a large amount of people. |
| 22:26 | <@rms> | mod_php and fast-cgi installations are unaffected. |
| 22:27 | <@Tamber> | Sure, but it's still PHP~ |
| 22:29 | <@rms> | Meh |
| 22:29 | <@rms> | It's better than .NET |
| 22:30 | <@Tamber> | I dunno, .NET is at least self-consistent and doesn't make me want to hurt kittens whilst trying to write something. |
| 22:30 | <@rms> | .NET has two implementations, each with their own custom extensions |
| 22:33 | <@ToxicFrog> | ...I would take any of the .NET languages, including VB.NET, over PHP in a heartbeat. |
| 22:33 | <@ToxicFrog> | And there is no .NET implementation that is anywhere near as huge a clusterfuck as php is. |
| 22:33 | <@rms> | Are you speaking of the namespace retardation, or something more concrete? |
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| 22:49 | <@ToxicFrog> | Off the top of my head, I'm speaking of the security flaws discovered on a regular basis which the PHP devs regularly fail to address; the inclusion of easter eggs that cannot be disabled except with a source patch; the utter disregard for testing the PHP devs have, to the extent of releasing versions where the unit tests cause it to segfault; the total lack of consistency in library naming and argument order conventions; the standard |
| 22:49 | <@ToxicFrog> | library, especially the parts that wrap C in a thin and fragile manner (except where they wrap it in something that behaves just differently enough from the underlying C API to be confusing); the documentation; the coercion behaviour; the error handling; create_function; and its weird love/hate relationships with functions vs. language keywords that look and are used exactly like functions until you try to treat them as one. |
| 22:49 | <@ToxicFrog> | People who, unlike me, have been working in PHP for years can go on for pages upon pages about everything that's wrong with it. |
| 22:50 | <@ToxicFrog> | Granted, some of this is because it's outgrown its roots. It's a quick-and-dirty templating language that people for some reason build entire applications in. |
| 22:50 | <@ToxicFrog> | But even as a templating language there is a lot wrong there. |
| 22:50 | <@ToxicFrog> | Also, re |
| 22:50 | <@ToxicFrog> | <rms> Meh, the bug only affects people who are using the moron-way of using PHP (CGI) or who are using suexec. |
| 22:50 | <@ToxicFrog> | <rms> That isn't a large amount of people. |
| 22:51 | <@ToxicFrog> | That isn't a large amount of people, but it does - or did until a few days ago, at least - including, at minimum, Sony and the entire US military. |
| 22:51 | <@rms> | Most installations are LAMP stacks, so mod_php |
| 22:52 | <@TheWatcher> | Yeah, so you only really need to worry about which 4+ year old bugs are in that one instead. |
| 22:52 | <@ToxicFrog> | (this of course completely ignores the fact that even if no-one was using PHP in that mode - and you're right, they shouldn't be - the fact that the bug exists at all is inexcusable!) |
| 22:52 | <@TheWatcher> | The language is an unmitigated crock of shit, and has not justifying features whatsoever |
| 22:52 | <@TheWatcher> | s/not/no/ |
| 22:52 | <@rms> | Documentation |
| 22:53 | <@TheWatcher> | AHAHAHAHAHAHAH. |
| 22:53 | <@ToxicFrog> | (It's there because one of the PHP devs looked at the code that checks for that case, said "why does this code exist, it makes our already terrible and broken testing framework even more broken", and the consensus was "checking commit history or commenting our shit is hard, let's remove it") |
| 22:53 | <@TheWatcher> | The php documentation is famously pathologically bad. |
| 22:53 | <@rms> | It is one of the reasons I actually started using Linux more than Windows. |
| 22:53 | <@ToxicFrog> | The PHP documentation is so bad that in some cases it is strictly inferior to no documentation at all because at least then you hit the source and find out what the actual behaviour is, rather than spending an hour tracking down a bug that is actually a result of the docs lying outright. |
| 22:54 | <@rms> | No documentation is perfect. But at least each function is documented enough that you can use them. |
| 22:54 | <@rms> | ... and you can actually find the documentation. |
| 22:54 | <@ToxicFrog> | See, the documentation for literally every other language I've used manages this without managing to be outright wrong on some major point on a regular basis |
| 22:54 | | * rms has never encountered documentation being incorrect. Only features being missing. |
| 22:56 | <@ToxicFrog> | If I am ever unfortunate enough to find myself working in PHP again, I'll keep track~ |
| 22:56 | | * rms is keeping notes of the negatives people say so he can actually confirm that they exist. |
| 22:57 | <@TheWatcher> | And woe betide you if you have the audacity to use anything but the very latest php release (you know, like CentOS/RHEL/Scientific do), becasue then you're left attempting to decode whether the function you want actually existed in the version you have available to you. And often finding the documentation lies outright about when a function was introduced, or when its interface changed. |
| 22:57 | <@ToxicFrog> | (low-hanging fruit: the PHP page on SQL injection is still crazy) |
| 22:57 | <@rms> | But as I said, only issue I've come across personally is obvious features not existing. Like json_error being a minor version later than json_decode and json_encode. |
| 22:58 | <@ToxicFrog> | (it was reported to the devs in, IIRC, 2010. Their reaction was "oh shit, you're right, we'll fix that." It has yet to be fixed.) |
| 23:01 | <@rms> | Suhosin is dead apparently. |
| 23:13 | <@Tamber> | http://phpsadness.com/ |
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| --- Log closed Thu May 10 00:00:58 2012 |