| --- Log opened Mon Mar 05 00:00:29 2012 |
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| 00:07 | <@ToxicFrog> | In general I am not a fan of developers going "don't worry, guys, I know we still don't have <highly requested feature X>, but we'll add it before we're done, promise" and then fucking off. |
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| 00:16 | < gnolam> | No, that's a dick move. |
| 00:17 | < gnolam> | And why I thought long and hard before buying KSP in its current state. |
| 00:23 | <@ToxicFrog> | In the case of KSP, I weighed the possibility that they would fuck off and that I didn't want to inadvertently reward them for doing that against how much fun I'd already derived from the free version (easily more than $7 worth) |
| 00:24 | < gnolam> | Yeah, that was what finally swung it for me. |
| 00:25 | < gnolam> | I realized that I had technically already gotten my money's worth. |
| 00:26 | < celticminstrel> | KSP? |
| 00:26 | <~Vornicus> | Kerbal Space Program |
| 00:26 | <~Vornicus> | Rocket Science: The Game |
| 00:27 | <@ToxicFrog> | Slamming Into The Moon At 3 km/s: The Game~ |
| 00:27 | <@ToxicFrog> | Also what I've been writing editing tools for for the past few days. |
| 00:28 | < gnolam> | Running Out of Fuel and Leaving Your Astronauts to Orbit Forever in the Cold Void of Space: The Game |
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| 00:29 | <@ToxicFrog> | Somehow Getting Them Into an Aerobraking Trajectory Using RCS, Only For the Moon to Slingshot Them Into the Darkness Between Worlds: The Game |
| 00:30 | <&Derakon> | ...aerobraking in the moon? |
| 00:31 | <@ToxicFrog> | No |
| 00:31 | <@ToxicFrog> | They were on a return trajectory from the moon |
| 00:31 | <@ToxicFrog> | There was a physics event during lunar ascent, leaving them without enough fuel to do more than get into an elliptical orbit of Kerbin |
| 00:32 | <&Derakon> | "physics event". |
| 00:32 | <@ToxicFrog> | Careful use of the remaining RCS managed to lower periapsis to the point where it was just grazing the atmosphere |
| 00:32 | <&Derakon> | That sounds like a euphemism. |
| 00:32 | <@ToxicFrog> | A few orbits later, they passed too close to the moon and it mangled their orbit and left them in solar orbit. |
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| 00:33 | <@ToxicFrog> | Derakon: let's just say that the setup for jettisoning the landing legs to save mass during ascent should have been more rigorously tested~ |
| 00:33 | < gnolam> | Heh. |
| 00:34 | <&Derakon> | Whups! |
| 00:34 | <@ToxicFrog> | celticminstrel: basically, what we're saying is that you should play KSP~ |
| 00:34 | <&Derakon> | I had trouble getting into it. |
| 00:34 | < gnolam> | celticminstrel: unless you value your productivity. |
| 00:34 | <&Derakon> | And it's a bit like DF in that it doesn't really give you any goals itself, so you have to provide them. |
| 00:35 | <@ToxicFrog> | Yeah, it is a pure sandbox game right now. |
| 00:36 | < gnolam> | ToxicFrog: my biggest in flight-discovered design flaw so far was noticing the lack of a parachute just before I hit the atmosphere. |
| 00:36 | <@ToxicFrog> | (although there are some fairly obvious goals most people end up going for to start with: leave troposphere, leave atmosphere, intercontinental flight, orbit, circular orbit, lunar flyby, lunar orbit, lunar landing, lunar landing and return to Kerbin) |
| 00:36 | <@ToxicFrog> | gnolam: oh man I've lost track of the number of times that's happened to me while testing new designs |
| 00:37 | < Tarinaky> | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hedy_Lamarr#Frequency-hopping_spread-spectrum_inven tion |
| 00:37 | < gnolam> | I actually managed to save them. |
| 00:37 | < gnolam> | I had just enough fuel left to make it a survivable crash landing. |
| 00:38 | < gnolam> | (Even Jeb freaked out at that landing) |
| 00:56 | < maoranma> | KSP? |
| 00:57 | <@ToxicFrog> | Yes. |
| 00:59 | < maoranma> | Kerbal Space Program? |
| 01:00 | | You're now known as TheWatcher[T-2] |
| 01:00 | <@ToxicFrog> | Oh, you were asking what it is? Yes. |
| 01:00 | <@ToxicFrog> | <Vornicus> Kerbal Space Program |
| 01:00 | <@ToxicFrog> | <Vornicus> Rocket Science: The Game |
| 01:00 | <@ToxicFrog> | <ToxicFrog> Slamming Into The Moon At 3 km/s: The Game~ |
| 01:00 | <@ToxicFrog> | <ToxicFrog> Also what I've been writing editing tools for for the past few days. |
| 01:00 | <@ToxicFrog> | <gnolam> Running Out of Fuel and Leaving Your Astronauts to Orbit Forever in the Cold Void of Space: The Game |
| 01:00 | <@ToxicFrog> | <ToxicFrog> Somehow Getting Them Into an Aerobraking Trajectory Using RCS, Only For the Moon to Slingshot Them Into the Darkness Between Worlds: The Game |
| 01:00 | < maoranma> | SGTIATURCSOFMSTIDBW: The Game |
| 01:01 | < maoranma> | Sounds wordy |
| 01:03 | <@ToxicFrog> | http://steamcommunity.com/id/toxicfrog/screenshot/650997586406942090 : The Game, then~ |
| 01:05 | < maoranma> | "How hard can rocket science be anyway?" Well it's not like it's roc- oh. |
| 01:06 | | You're now known as TheWatcher[zZzZ] |
| 01:06 | <@ToxicFrog> | Easier than most people think but harder than it looks~ |
| 01:07 | < maoranma> | What kind of GPU does it need? |
| 01:08 | <&Derakon> | Of course, you have the liberty of having an unlimited budget and nobody to complain if you drop random rocketry components on them. |
| 01:08 | < maoranma> | Oh, it's $15, never ind |
| 01:08 | < maoranma> | ... |
| 01:08 | < maoranma> | Wow, I lost my M there entirely |
| 01:09 | < maoranma> | I'm saving up for a Datel Trainer Toolkit |
| 01:09 | < maoranma> | If I can ever find one reasonably priced |
| 01:09 | <@ToxicFrog> | maoranma: there is a free version; it's just no longer getting updates (which means, at present, you don't get a persistent world or concurrent flights) |
| 01:09 | <@Vash> | oh, I misread that and thought you were trying to find a reasonably priced... m |
| 01:09 | <@Vash> | XD |
| 01:10 | < maoranma> | haha |
| 01:10 | <@ToxicFrog> | And the performance requirements are the same, so if you can run .13 you can rnu .14 |
| 01:10 | < maoranma> | Letters are expensive these days, just ask your postalmaster *badumchish* |
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| 12:32 | < Tarinaky> | I am going to stab my group project members. |
| 12:32 | < Tarinaky> | Over and over and over and over and over again |
| 12:32 | < Tarinaky> | With a blunt gardening instrument. |
| 12:32 | < Tarinaky> | And when they come for me I will tell them it was justice. |
| 12:32 | < Tarinaky> | For what they did to the fucking git. |
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| 13:00 | <@TheWatcher> | WWhy, what've they gone and done? |
| 13:50 | <@jerith> | Tarinaky: http://gitguru.com/2009/02/22/integrating-git-with-a-visual-merge-tool/ |
| 13:50 | <@jerith> | (Since this is a more appropriate place than the other channel.) |
| 14:01 | < Tarinaky> | I used egit's tool. |
| 14:01 | < Tarinaky> | I just didn't know how to use it >.> |
| 14:01 | < Tarinaky> | And shouldn't have really had to use it. |
| 14:01 | < Tarinaky> | Since there was no good reason to practice branch necromancy like that. |
| 14:02 | < Tarinaky> | To add insult to injury the commit they wanted me to merge didn't even compile. |
| 14:02 | < Tarinaky> | (Missing semi-colon :/) |
| 14:02 | < Tarinaky> | I left it as a subtle sleight to them. |
| 14:03 | < Tarinaky> | I was fucked off with them to begin with since one of them said he'd finish the UI over the weekend. |
| 14:03 | < Tarinaky> | He was quite adamant he could do so. |
| 14:03 | < Tarinaky> | Monday morning? He slips and tells me that he'll start it today |
| 14:03 | < Tarinaky> | TODAY IS NOT THE WEEKEND AIDAN |
| 14:03 | <@jerith> | There is no excuse for committing broken code. |
| 14:03 | <@jerith> | What's your test coverage like? (hahaha) |
| 14:03 | < Tarinaky> | jerith: My stuff is thoroughly tested. |
| 14:04 | < Tarinaky> | Their stuff, apparently, isn't even compiled. |
| 14:04 | <@jerith> | Automated tests? |
| 14:04 | < Tarinaky> | Yes. |
| 14:04 | < Tarinaky> | junit. |
| 14:04 | <@jerith> | \o/ |
| 14:04 | | * jerith hugs Tarinaky. |
| 14:04 | < Tarinaky> | I wanted to experiment with agile development. |
| 14:04 | < Tarinaky> | So I wrote the tests first. |
| 14:04 | <@jerith> | Tests have nothing to do with "agile". And neither does TDD. |
| 14:04 | < Tarinaky> | I thought TDD was Agile development? |
| 14:04 | <@jerith> | Tests have everything to do with quality. |
| 14:05 | <@jerith> | No. |
| 14:05 | <@jerith> | TDD is a development practice that a lot of "agile" teams use. |
| 14:05 | < Tarinaky> | Ah. |
| 14:05 | <@jerith> | I don't like it really, because I tend to do a lot of exploratory coding. |
| 14:05 | < Tarinaky> | Well, aparently I did TDD then :p |
| 14:06 | <@jerith> | I write my code and my tests at about the same time, but the tests often lag behind a bit until I know what my interfaces are going to look like. |
| 14:06 | < Tarinaky> | Yeah. |
| 14:06 | < Tarinaky> | In this case though I knew what my interfaces looked like from the start. |
| 14:06 | < Tarinaky> | With a couple of omissions due to being a bit crap in my own way :) |
| 14:07 | < Tarinaky> | Sorry, *inexperienced |
| 14:07 | <@jerith> | (TDD wants you design interfaces upfront, but I find it easier to rework the interfaces as I discover more about the code I'm writing.) |
| 14:07 | < Tarinaky> | Anyway. |
| 14:07 | < Tarinaky> | Lecture starting. |
| 14:07 | <@jerith> | If I have to conform to an existing interface, I'll write those tests first. |
| 14:08 | <@jerith> | Tarinaky: But anyway, you seem to be heading towards becoming someone I'd consider hiring. :-) |
| 14:08 | < Tarinaky> | Well, we were using something the lecturers refer to as a Model/something pattern. |
| 14:08 | < Tarinaky> | I just call it encapsulation but w/e. |
| 14:08 | <@jerith> | MVC? |
| 14:08 | < Tarinaky> | So I wanted to give them the interfaces so they could start on the UI from the start. |
| 14:08 | < Tarinaky> | Of course, they didn't. |
| 14:08 | < Tarinaky> | But they -could- have >.> |
| 14:08 | < Tarinaky> | No idea, I missed that lecture. |
| 14:09 | <@jerith> | Model/View/Controller. |
| 14:09 | < Tarinaky> | Sounds about right. |
| 14:09 | <@jerith> | The Model handles data access, the View handles UI, the Controller glues them together. |
| 14:10 | < Tarinaky> | Well, all we've been taught is Model/View. |
| 14:10 | < Tarinaky> | I don't recall any talk of controller. |
| 14:10 | < Tarinaky> | But then, the lecturer is particularly shit :) |
| 14:34 | | * TheWatcher finally gets around to setting up github account, largely because he doesn't want students arsing around on any of his machines |
| 14:39 | < maoranma> | So, I know what I want to do for my first GUI app in Python |
| 14:39 | < maoranma> | A pokedex app, hah |
| 14:40 | < maoranma> | With tab views, images, audio playback |
| 14:41 | <@jerith> | Good luck with that. |
| 14:42 | <@jerith> | (GUI stuff is painful everywhere, but it's painfuller in Python.) |
| 14:42 | < maoranma> | I figured it'd be a learning experience, and a pokedex is hilariously complicated |
| 14:43 | < maoranma> | And I want an advanced search button |
| 14:43 | < maoranma> | I wonder if I should code a CLI version first, then build it into a gui afterwards |
| 14:43 | < Tarinaky> | Are there even any sensible libraries for native guis in python? |
| 14:44 | < maoranma> | Is wxpython sensible? |
| 14:44 | < Tarinaky> | Probably not, I hate wxwidgets. |
| 14:44 | < maoranma> | I'm playing with glade atm, it's a GUI builder for wx |
| 14:44 | <@jerith> | One of my colleagues maintains http://sourceforge.net/apps/trac/sutekh/wiki |
| 14:44 | < maoranma> | Or gtk |
| 14:44 | < maoranma> | or something |
| 14:44 | < Tarinaky> | gtk is alright, I guess. |
| 14:45 | <@jerith> | Which is a VtES card database thingy in Python. |
| 14:45 | <@jerith> | Might be a good place to look for ideas. |
| 14:46 | < maoranma> | Good idea |
| 14:47 | <@jerith> | They use GTK, I think. |
| 14:51 | < maoranma> | Hmm, I need a good way to store and access the data about the pokemon. I'm thinking xml files with folder structure, as to store images and audio |
| 14:51 | < Tarinaky> | Pickle a dictionary? |
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| 14:52 | < maoranma> | Perhaps |
| 14:53 | < froztbyte> | pickling is a bit dirty |
| 14:53 | < RichyB> | maoranma: if your entire DB is small enough to fit into memory when structured as a bunch of dicts, write it out in json. |
| 14:53 | < Tarinaky> | It's no worse than java's serialisation? |
| 14:53 | < froztbyte> | what RichyB said |
| 14:54 | < RichyB> | It's exactly as bad as Java's serialisation and for exactly the same problem. |
| 14:54 | < froztbyte> | Tarinaky: still no valid reason to use it :) |
| 14:54 | < RichyB> | It's unduly overly specific to Python. Reading a pickle file from a Ruby or a C program is an inordinate amount of work. Reading a json file is easy in every programming language worth using. |
| 14:54 | <@jerith> | I've never had anything but pain when trying to use pickles for anything. |
| 14:55 | <@jerith> | XML or JSON or YAML is probably a better bet. |
| 14:55 | < RichyB> | The only place where pickles are really appropriate are things like network serialisation between programs that you happen to know a-priori will both be written in Python. |
| 14:55 | <@jerith> | Possibly even sqlite, although I'mk not sure how portable that is. |
| 14:55 | < RichyB> | Even then, it's usually safer to go for json or messagepack. |
| 14:55 | < maoranma> | I see, so pickle is specific to python, and probably best used when only dealing with a pure python environment, but json is more universal? |
| 14:55 | <@jerith> | RichyB: Even that is problematic. |
| 14:55 | < Tarinaky> | Surely changing from pickle to json later on in the project is painless though? |
| 14:56 | < maoranma> | I was thinking XML, but Json might be good too |
| 14:56 | < RichyB> | jerith, *and you have to know that both copies are using the same Python version, and also have the same Python eggs loaded in sys.modules :) |
| 14:56 | < RichyB> | Tarinaky, no, not really. |
| 14:56 | <@jerith> | maoranma: JSON is well-defined and is very cross-platform these days. |
| 14:56 | < Tarinaky> | Oh. |
| 14:56 | < maoranma> | jerith: On par with xml? |
| 14:57 | < froztbyte> | XML is one of those things which people use because it's one of those things people use |
| 14:57 | <@jerith> | maoranma: Pretty much. |
| 14:57 | < froztbyte> | so it's rarely really my first choice |
| 14:57 | < maoranma> | Hmm, I see |
| 14:57 | <@jerith> | Except XML is huge and complicated and fraught with peril. |
| 14:58 | <@jerith> | (Sane namespace handling in your-XML-library-of-choice, for example.) |
| 14:58 | < froztbyte> | and the trivial problems which can be be solved with it ("but you can store your whole inventory of books with tags and author information and and and") are problems I can solve with other storage mechanisms too |
| 14:58 | < froztbyte> | then there are the further mechanics(?) which jerith mentions |
| 14:59 | <@jerith> | Don't even try to validate schemas. (I have yet to see a schema validation tool that both works and is useful.) |
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| 15:09 | < maoranma> | So, as a javascript object, I can use javascript syntax highlighting in np++ on it? |
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| 15:10 | <@jerith> | There might be a separate JSON syntax highlighter. |
| 15:10 | < maoranma> | Every think Trekman is dead, and his computer is connected to illegal power and internet somewhere, forver reconnecting and changing nicks? |
| 15:11 | < RichyB> | jerith, FWIW, schema validation is actually useful under some use cases. |
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| 15:12 | < maoranma> | Look like js syntax works fine on it |
| 15:12 | < RichyB> | jerith, like if you have to work with someone whom you do not trust to send you sanely-formatted data, so you provide them with an XSD and get a commercial agreement that if their stuff doesn't conform to it then you're not liable for whatever unfortunate repercussions occur. |
| 15:12 | < maoranma> | However, there is a json viewer plugin, whee |
| 15:13 | <@jerith> | RichyB: No, I meant that none of the working validators could handle a schema complex enough that a validator would be necessary. |
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| 15:20 | < RichyB> | In the use case I am describing, the validator's utility is entirely uncorrelated with the complexity of the schema. |
| 15:21 | < maoranma> | I think yaml might be better for what I want |
| 15:21 | < RichyB> | YAML is usually overkill. Do you actually want/need anything that isn't just a bunch of dicts, lists, numbers and strings? |
| 15:22 | <@jerith> | YAML's nice if you want it to be human-writeable. |
| 15:22 | < maoranma> | See jerith |
| 15:22 | <@jerith> | Or if you really want to represent arbitrary objects, but then you run into many of the problems pickles have. |
| 15:23 | < maoranma> | plus pyyaml looks really easy to use |
| 15:23 | <@jerith> | (Also, make sure you use the safe version of the parser in the Python YAML library. The normal one can execute arbitrary code while parsing.) |
| 15:24 | < maoranma> | I read that |
| 15:24 | <@jerith> | (Also, using the safe version disables most of the advanced stuff anyway.) |
| 15:27 | < maoranma> | What's great is I figured out how to interface mIRC to python scripts |
| 15:27 | <@jerith> | \o/ |
| 15:27 | < maoranma> | So maybe I can make an IRC bot when I'm done with the CLI version |
| 15:28 | <@jerith> | Or maybe /o\ |
| 15:28 | <@jerith> | Depending. |
| 15:28 | < maoranma> | /o\ more likely |
| 15:29 | < maoranma> | afk |
| 15:39 | < gnolam> | maoranma: whether wxpython is sensible or not depends on your definition of "sensible". The results you get are sensible (i.e. they look native unlike, say, GTK). However, it'll drive you fucking /crazy/. |
| 15:39 | < gnolam> | I'm pretty sure my forehead's left permanent impressions in this desk because of it. |
| 15:40 | < gnolam> | maoranma: I'd give PyQt a whirl if I were you. |
| 15:40 | <@ToxicFrog> | maoranma: if by some tragic circumstance you find yourself making a GUI, I highly recommend Qt. |
| 15:41 | <@ToxicFrog> | If you just want to quickly slap together a small prototype, Py/Tk (tkinter) is a decent choice for that. |
| 15:42 | < maoranma> | Hmm, okay |
| 15:43 | < maoranma> | Thanks for the advices, I like the idea of ease of use and functionality over it looking native |
| 15:44 | <@ToxicFrog> | Qt also looks native! |
| 15:44 | < gnolam> | (This said, I actually used wxPython for a project out of my own free will even after TADPOLE. But that was a simple GUI that only had to run on one platform, so none of the SAN loss applied (instead, I just got the advantages of an API I knew well).) |
| 15:44 | <@ToxicFrog> | tkinter is easy to use but the wheels come off once you start building large GUIS with it. |
| 15:46 | < maoranma> | I see |
| 15:46 | < maoranma> | It's probably gonna be a simple GUI, but I don't know what tkinter considers "simple" |
| 15:47 | < maoranma> | It's probably be a split window, with text and a picture at the top, some radios to change the picture, and tabs at the bottom, containing other info |
| 15:48 | < maoranma> | But even that could be abstracted into buttons and other windows |
| 15:51 | < celticminstrel> | ...YAML's not that great for being human-writeable. |
| 15:51 | < celticminstrel> | 3 |
| 15:52 | < maoranma> | Ask a room of programmers how to do something, you'll never get the same answer |
| 15:52 | < celticminstrel> | Heh. |
| 15:52 | < maoranma> | Tell us celticminstrel, what would you recommend? |
| 15:52 | < celticminstrel> | I dislike how YAML crashes on tabs. |
| 15:52 | < celticminstrel> | Well, crashes is the wrong word, but still. |
| 15:53 | < celticminstrel> | I dunno, it depends on what you're doing. |
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| 16:11 | < RichyB> | celticminstrel, the word you were looking for was, "barfs." |
| 16:12 | < celticminstrel> | It's not the word I was looking for, but it fits well enough. |
| 16:13 | < maoranma> | Sounds right to me |
| 16:13 | < maoranma> | If it's a little off, it may look fine, but it'll make you barf |
| 16:24 | < RichyB> | celticminstrel, it's the precise technical term. |
| 16:24 | < RichyB> | The parser isn't crashing on tabs, but it is refusing to digest them and it's spewing up a mess of error messages. :) |
| 16:29 | < celticminstrel> | :P |
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| 19:41 | <&McMartin> | There is also "chokes", which I guess is when you don't get a mess of error messages but it just dies with a gurgle |
| 20:31 | < ShellNinja> | Is Open MoO good? |
| 20:32 | < Vornucopia> | Dunno, never heard of it |
| 20:32 | < Vornucopia> | FreeOrion last i checked was nowhere near finished but I haven't checked it in a long time. |
| 20:33 | < Vornucopia> | (I will evaluate openmoo when I get home, it may scratch one of my ancient developer itches) |
| 20:33 | < ShellNinja> | Yeah, FreeOrion was what I meant. |
| 20:33 | < ShellNinja> | Didn't you make a MoO clone too? |
| 20:34 | < Vornucopia> | I started work on it and then got very sidetracked. |
| 20:34 | < Vornucopia> | Story of my life. |
| 20:35 | <@Vash> | "OH MAH GOD SHINNY PENNIES!- *play like a kitty with a yarn ball*" >_> |
| 20:35 | | * Vash patpat Vorn |
| 20:35 | < Vornucopia> | Fuckin' pennies |
| 20:35 | <@Vash> | =P |
| 20:35 | < Vornucopia> | Oh I wanted to link you to somethin |
| 20:35 | | * Vash snuggles her Vorn anyway |
| 20:35 | <@Vash> | ... |
| 20:35 | <@Vash> | talking about getting distracted |
| 20:35 | <@Vash> | =P |
| 20:36 | < Vornucopia> | It's about distraction, actually. http://www.lastwordonnothing.com/2012/02/09/better-living-through-electrochemist ry/ |
| 20:37 | < Vornucopia> | Forget laser eye surgery, I want to fix my brain first~ |
| 20:37 | | * Vash found something she needs in case she needs to beat vorn iwth a cheese: http://www.shanalogic.com/mini-happy-cheese-pillow.html |
| 20:37 | | * Vash snorts |
| 20:40 | <@Tamber> | Oh, fuck /off/ google... If I search for 'xdm', what stupid logic are you applying to change that to 'gdm'? Oh, right "We know better than you do." |
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| 20:44 | < Vornucopia> | Vash: I'm not sure whether that's more or less win than the floppy disk one. |
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| 20:45 | <@Vash> | Vorn: .. for beating people on the head with cheese? more win, I think. But not by much. |
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| 20:59 | <&Derakon> | Whee breaking devices. |
| 20:59 | <&Derakon> | Our digital/analog signal source device has broken (again!), causing one of our microscopes to become completely unusable. |
| 21:00 | <&Derakon> | We're currently using a DSP card, despite making precisely zero use of its processing capabilities; it's just a signal source that can be preloaded with a sequence of actions (e.g. at time 50 send digital signal high on line 8) and then carry those out with a fairly high (sub-millisecond) degree of precision. |
| 21:00 | <&Derakon> | I'm sure we could replace this ~$5k device with one that only cost a few hundred dollars or so... |
| 21:01 | <&Derakon> | The question is what that device would look like. |
| 21:15 | < gnolam> | ... like any old $10 microcontroller? |
| 21:15 | <&Derakon> | Does your average microcontroller have 16+ digital outputs and 4 analog outputs? |
| 21:16 | <@Tamber> | Depends on which one you're looking at. |
| 21:17 | <&Derakon> | Basically I don't know how to go about doing product research for this kind of thing. |
| 21:17 | <&Derakon> | Also, it does need to be plugged into a computer all the time. |
| 21:18 | <&Derakon> | Since we have two use cases. In the first, the computer just says "Flip this digital line high" or "set this analog voltage". In the second, we generate that sequence of actions, load them onto the card, and have it execute them -- and this is where that sub-millisecond precision is needed. |
| 21:18 | <@Tamber> | I'd suggest looking at, say, http://www.atmel.com/products/microcontrollers/avr/default.aspx and finding a product they have that has the required amount of I/Os (And then some, since you need to interface with a PC.). ...actually, that's a thought; what's the computer interface? Serial, USB? |
| 21:19 | <&Derakon> | Either would work. |
| 21:19 | <&Derakon> | Our current card is PCI but that's not a requirement. |
| 21:19 | <&Derakon> | Basically, ports on the computer itself aren't in short supply. :) |
| 21:19 | <@Tamber> | Admittedly, it's possibly a rather intensive solution, since you'd have to probably roll the software and hardware yourself... |
| 21:20 | <@Tamber> | (That is, you get the uC, and get a board made for it to go on with all the extra bits you need, then write the software to interface it with PC and microscope...) |
| 21:20 | <&Derakon> | We're already rolling the software ourselves. Not having an externally-supported hardware setup is a bit concerning though. |
| 21:20 | <@Tamber> | Indeed. |
| 21:20 | <@Tamber> | But if you can't find something that does the job, you've at least got something to fall back on. :/ |
| 21:21 | < gnolam> | The "extra bits you need" would be the DAC(s). |
| 21:21 | <&Derakon> | Yeah. |
| 21:21 | <&Derakon> | Analog output isn't standard on most devices AFAICT. |
| 21:21 | < gnolam> | Even a puny ATTiny has a few A/D inputs, but D/A is harder. |
| 21:22 | < gnolam> | (But hey, depending on your application, you might get away with 1-bit DAC... in which case you won't need any extra bits) |
| 21:23 | < gnolam> | (The Microcontroller Motto: When in doubt, PWM.~) |
| 21:23 | <&Derakon> | 1-bit DAC...what, pulse-width modulated? |
| 21:23 | <&Derakon> | Heh. |
| 21:25 | <@Tamber> | Should be fairly reachable, though... (Disclaimer: Most of my hardware development involves ~80A, a coated metal rod and a dark mask; take my comments with a shovelful of salt, etc.) |
| 21:30 | < gnolam> | Tamber: that's the most fun kind of hardware development. ;) |
| 21:30 | <@Tamber> | :p |
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| 21:40 | <&Derakon> | So a microcontroller is basically just a chip, right? |
| 21:40 | <@Tamber> | Unless you get a development board, yup. |
| 21:41 | <&Derakon> | How do you go about programming it, and would you have to solder it to its power supply and I/O lines and so on? |
| 21:41 | <@Tamber> | Programming is a matter of 'just' connecting up the programmer to the right pins; and yup. |
| 21:43 | <&Derakon> | Mm, I've a feeling my boss wouldn't really like such a hand-modified approach. |
| 21:43 | <@Tamber> | Probably not. Although I didn't mean "just connect wires all over the place"~ |
| 21:43 | <@Tamber> | :p |
| 21:43 | <&Derakon> | That is, we'd probably prefer to have an all-in-one solution where we plug in a USB cable, a wall outlet plug, and something for the outputs. |
| 21:43 | < gnolam> | If you are willing to pay more, you get yourself an Arduino, which is basically an AVR with everything necessary already hooked up. |
| 21:43 | <&Derakon> | And that all-in-one solution would be sold as-is by some vendor. |
| 21:44 | <@TheWatcher> | Ardunio, then. |
| 21:44 | <&Derakon> | AVR: Atmel AVR? |
| 21:45 | < gnolam> | Yes. |
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| 22:03 | < gnolam> | Derakon: http://www.sparkfun.com/products/11021 and http://www.sparkfun.com/products/9947 together, for example, should be all the hardware you need besides any additional DACs. |
| 22:04 | < gnolam> | And that gives you 14 GPIO pins to play with. |
| 22:05 | <&Derakon> | Wouldn't the DACs suck up a bunch of IO pins? |
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| 23:35 | | You're now known as TheWatcher[T-2] |
| 23:36 | < Stalker> | McMartin: What was the verdict on Win8, by the way? |
| 23:37 | | You're now known as TheWatcher[zZzZ] |
| 23:41 | <&McMartin> | I don't see enthusiastic uptake amongst desktop users, but I'm not yet to calling it a Vista-level disaster. |
| 23:52 | | Derakon [chriswei@Nightstar-a3b183ae.ca.comcast.net] has quit [[NS] Quit: leaving] |
| 23:54 | < maoranma> | Stalker: Let's just say, in Microsoft mathematics, 8 < 7. |
| 23:54 | < Stalker> | ? |
| 23:54 | < maoranma> | It's bad |
| 23:54 | < maoranma> | imo |
| 23:55 | < Stalker> | Sounds like. |
| 23:55 | < Stalker> | I guess that's why nobody has dispelled the rumours yet. |
| 23:59 | < maoranma> | Yea, I think I like pyyaml for what I need on this, and using dictionary structuring, it's not hard to address the info I need |
| --- Log closed Tue Mar 06 00:00:04 2012 |