code logs -> 2011 -> Thu, 29 Dec 2011< code.20111228.log - code.20111230.log >
--- Log opened Thu Dec 29 00:00:00 2011
00:01 cpux|2 is now known as cpux
00:03 cpux [cpux@Nightstar-c5874a39.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [[NS] Quit: Well, most things get better when I kick them!]
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00:11
< gnolam>
http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg21228440.700-dotdashdiss-the-gentleman-hac kers-1903-lulz.html
00:11
< gnolam>
(I like the photo caption)
00:12
< Namegduf>
That is awesome.
00:12
< McM[xmas]>
That's pretty steampunk.
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00:42
< himi>
That's damned cool
00:42
< himi>
And ironically apposite these days, given it was prompted by overly broad patents
00:43 Kindamoody[zZz] is now known as Kindamoody
00:43
< Attilla>
heh
00:45
< himi>
Also pretty cool to know that Maxwell had figured out electromagnetism /twenty years/ before anyone was able to detect them . . .
00:47
< McM[xmas]>
The equations don't balance without his additions!
00:49 * himi has seen suggestions that Maxwell would have gotten to relativity long before Einstein if he'd realised that his EM work could go further
00:52
< McM[xmas]>
Yeah, the statement of special relativity is actually pretty straightforward in terms of Maxwell's equations.
00:52
< McM[xmas]>
"Here's how we deduce the speed of light."
00:53
< McM[xmas]>
"Did you see velocity - of anything - going into that equation anywhere? That's right, you didn't."
00:53
< himi>
Physics is just plain cool
01:10
< Alek>
ahaha
01:22
< McM[xmas]>
Of course, what that *means* and *implies* is pretty messy.
01:23
< himi>
For values of "pretty messy" that translate to "we still don't really get it"
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03:17
< sshine>
for a moment, I mistook this for #philosophy@freenode and was positively surprised at the level of intellect displayed there. that was until I switched windows and saw "<causative:##philosophy> yeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa"
03:18
< ToxicFrog>
Replace #philosophy with ##programming and I've done the same.
03:19
< ToxicFrog>
I don't hang out in ##programming anymore.
03:19
< Namegduf>
Reddit's /r/programming drove me to scoff at the entire site.
03:19
< Namegduf>
I'm only now vaguely beginning to grudgingly accept that other parts of it MAY be acceptable.
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05:44 * Vornicus gnaws on this code.
05:53 * ToxicFrog determines that his own box.unpack is the kittenest library
05:54
< ToxicFrog>
Which is to say that if you dangle something shiny in front of it (like a recursive data structure) it goes insane.
05:56
< ToxicFrog>
Oh, I think I see what's happening.
05:56
< ToxicFrog>
....shiiiiiit.
05:57
< ToxicFrog>
I see what's happening and I can't figure out how to fix it.
05:58
< ToxicFrog>
I mean, I see how to fix it in this specific case, but not how to fix it in the general case.
06:04<~Vornicus> WQhat's going on?
06:05
< ToxicFrog>
(actually, I think the answer for the general case here may be "don't do this")
06:05
< ToxicFrog>
(now that I actually try to phrase it)
06:05<~Vornicus> and box.unpack, um. does that in fact do what it sounds like it does, namely dump all the pieces onto the table?
06:06
< ToxicFrog>
...because the phrase comes out as "the deserializer has a crazy if deserializing an object requires passing the object to its own constructor before it exists"
06:06<~Vornicus> ...yes, don't do that.
06:07
< ToxicFrog>
(the specific issue triggering this was that a Game object lists itself in its own objects table, and serializing a Game serializes the entire object table in the arguments to the ctor...)
06:07
< ToxicFrog>
And box.unpack does nothing of the kind; box.(pack|unpack) are the API to the (de)serialization machinery.
06:08
< ToxicFrog>
("but you are using Lua! Why not just serialize to Lua table declarations and get deserialization for free?" - because this means the deserializer is actually "load and execute arbitrary code from the network", a prospect that makes me queasy~)
06:09<~Vornicus> JSON, mendicant~
06:10
< ToxicFrog>
JSON can't define RDTs
06:12
< ToxicFrog>
Also, JSON has no mechanism for defining new types, which means that to express things like "the serialized form of an object of type T which can be deserialized by calling its constructor with argument C" I need to stuff those into a table in some manner that I'm sure a "plain" table will never accidentally look like.
06:16
< ToxicFrog>
and now, slep
06:16 Stalker [Z@Nightstar-3602cf5a.cust.comxnet.dk] has joined #code
06:22 * Vornicus tries to figure out what the crap thing you're throwing around that's recursive.
06:34 * Stalker tries to figure out wether mouse13 and mouse14 is working correctly.
06:36 * Stalker is so far unsuccessful.
06:45 * Vornicus still can't figure out the appeal of mice with that many buttons.
06:45
< Namegduf>
I want a mouse with many buttons for my tiling WM.
06:45
< Namegduf>
Bind making a window the main window to a button.
06:45
< Namegduf>
Switch workspace left and right to buttons.
06:47
< Stalker>
Vorn: I bought this one to utilize the four buttons located on top of it because the additional buttons located at the side of a mouse is bothering me.
06:47
< Stalker>
I have to grab the mouse and hold it firm to make sure I press the burrons correctly, and that precludes using them for stuff like grenades in games.
06:48
< Stalker>
However with buttons on top, the table on which the mouse rests provides the resistance that allows me to press the buttons and remain accurate at the same time.
06:49
< Namegduf>
Window move up, window move down
06:49
< Namegduf>
That's five additional buttons...
06:50
< Namegduf>
Oh, maximise.
06:50
< Namegduf>
For six.
06:50
< Namegduf>
Then I will remove them from the keyboard entirely, just to piss off anyone else trying to use the machine. This is my primary security mechanism should anyone break in.
06:51
< Stalker>
Pissing people off?
06:51
< Namegduf>
A control scheme that renders the machine unusable to anyone but myself due to outright hostility to anyone who does not already know how to use it
06:53
< jerith>
Namegduf: Have you ever tried to use someone else's emacs?
06:53
< Namegduf>
jerith: No, but I imagine it would be essentially similar to trying to use someone else's XMonad.
06:54
< jerith>
:-)
06:55 * Vornicus hasn't even figured out how to use his own emacs.
06:55
< Tamber>
Hehehehe
06:58<~Vornicus> (though to be fair my experience with emacs was about half an hour trying to figure out what the hell the basic commands were and failing, and then saying "screw this, I like guis"
06:58
< Stalker>
Everybody does?
07:00
< jerith>
Emacs has a very hostile learning curve.
07:00<~Vornicus> or rather "screw this, I like standards" which is a little less controversial. :P
07:01
< jerith>
This is because it isn't so much an editor as it is a tool for building editors.
07:01
< jerith>
I love emacs for the same reason Chalain loves Ruby.
07:02
< jerith>
Heh. It turns out that this week /isn't/ worktime.
07:02
< jerith>
But I'll be working anyway, because otherwise I'll be bored or something.
07:05
< celticminstrel>
Heh.
07:06<~Vornicus> I got so mad at ruby because it advertised itself as a DRY-encouraging language and then Chalain and I sat there for like four hours trying and failing to use DRY for number * vector
07:07
< jerith>
Oh, right. You worked with Chalain for a while.
07:07
< celticminstrel>
DRY?
07:08<~Vornicus> That its syntax was ridiculously fast and loose and the standard way to do things was "modify the standard library" also grumped me
07:08<~Vornicus> "Don't Repeat Yourself"
07:09
< jerith>
Yeah. Chalain loves it because the internals are made of putty and you came build a better language to solve your problem in.
07:09
< jerith>
s/came/can/
07:09<~Vornicus> The problem was that I needed to cause all existing numeric types to properly multiply with a vector such that a * <b,c,d> gives <ab,ac,ad>.
07:09
< Namegduf>
Ruby seems to combine OO with a love of monkey patching.
07:09
< Namegduf>
I don't understand the conceptual basis for this and don't think I want to.
07:09<~Vornicus> In Python, I'd do this by defining vector.__radd__
07:10
< jerith>
I love that in an editor, because it's *mine*. I hate it in a codebase, because it's communal and breaks expectations between apps.
07:10
< jerith>
Namegduf: Ruby's spiritual ancestors are lisp and smalltalk.
07:11<~Vornicus> Ruby doesn't have reverse operator overloads; I'd have to move aside and patch in a method to the number types so that it understands what it needs to do.
07:11
< celticminstrel>
That's kinda true of JavaScript too, right?
07:11
< celticminstrel>
"the internals are made of putty" or whatever.
07:12<~Vornicus> But doing so on Numeric or whatever the base class was called didn't work: Numeric.* is never called, because the overrides from the specific number classes don't call it.
07:12
< Namegduf>
jerith: I can't stand Lisp because it's a functional language where I needed to constantly manage shared state for efficiency without stepping on things
07:12
< Namegduf>
Which I found substantially harder than, say, manual memory management in C, if I didn't do it the stupid way by just refusing to use anything that didn't do a full copy
07:13 * McM[xmas] stabs the fuck out of Firefox.
07:13
< McM[xmas]>
"Force reload" includes sub frames!
07:13
< Namegduf>
Smalltalk I simply don't know.
07:14<~Vornicus> And coercion doesn't work either, because coerce doesn't ask what operations you're doing.
07:14<~Vornicus> And the operation choice tells you in some sense how you're supposed to coerce.
07:14
< Namegduf>
jerith: So where does the moronic love of broken English as interpreted by someone who doesn't speak English as a way of writing programs come from?
07:15
< Namegduf>
Or is that part of its, ahem, unique spin
07:16 * Namegduf also has no tolerance for FOO if CONDITION, but at least that's just repeating the ugly of previous languages
07:16
< celticminstrel>
McM[xmas]: Does, or should?
07:16
< Namegduf>
I'm sure that would read fine for me if my language ran right-to-left
07:16
< celticminstrel>
Also, really, still Christmas for you? :P
07:17<~Vornicus> (Chalain suggested that I coerce number, vector to vector, number, to which I pointed out that the two are clearly different: number / vector is illegal, but vector / number is fine, and even if the first was legal, / is noncommutative)
07:17
< Namegduf>
But as is, that forces me to basically stop parsing, go back, fix my control flow, and go forward again.
07:18
< jerith>
I'm okay with trailing conditions in very specific circumstances.
07:18
< jerith>
Namely, if the condition is true in the common case and the common case is *very* common.
07:19<~Vornicus> So the only answer I could find was monkeypatching /every/ numeric type, but that violates DRY
07:20<~Vornicus> And that's my rubyrant.
07:20<~Vornicus> On the other hand, rake made my life ridiculously easy, getting my massive makefile trick out the door.
07:21
< Namegduf>
Honestly, I thought it was a stupid language the moment monkeypatching the standard library as a basic solution to anything came up.
07:21
< jerith>
There are two reasons to monkeypatch the standard library.
07:22
< jerith>
One is that the standard library is broken in a number of places. (This is becoming less true, but it was one of the reasons I hated the language.)
07:23
< McM[xmas]>
celticminstrel: should
07:23
< McM[xmas]>
You need to do *alt*-F5 if you want to *actually* reload everything.
07:24
< McM[xmas]>
Ctrl-F5 only looks at HEAD and completely ignores subsidiary included content.
07:24
< McM[xmas]>
This works Rather Poorly if frames are involved in any form.
07:26
< jerith>
I thought "C-F5" meant "relaod me harder" and did everything.
07:26
< jerith>
Or does it only some of the things?
07:26
< jerith>
Specifically, I thought it did all referenced stuff as well.
07:27<~Vornicus> LOAD ALL THE THINGS
07:27
< jerith>
RELOAD ALL THE THINGS
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07:27
< jerith>
Actuall, not ALLthe things.
07:27
< jerith>
The the things on this page.
07:28
< Stalker>
Hmm, seems not to work.
07:28 * Stalker pouts.
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07:34
< jerith>
ALL THE BUTTONS!
07:36
< Stalker>
Well, so far I seem able to use any 5 of the 14 buttons the mouse has.
07:36
< Stalker>
This is bothersome.
07:36
< Stalker>
I wish to use all 14.
07:37
< jerith>
Drivers?
07:37
< Stalker>
Just checked, no updates.
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07:42
< McM[xmas]>
Vornicus, jerith: It appears that Reload ALL the things is only Alt-F5.
07:42
< McM[xmas]>
Ctrl-F5 reloads your frameset and leaves the frames cached, if that's the way it's structured.
07:43
< McM[xmas]>
I guess Ctrl-F5 reloads images on the page?
07:43
< jerith>
I thought it also did stylesheets and such.
07:43
< jerith>
(Which F5 on its own doesn't do. I think.)
07:44
< jerith>
I use cmd-R these days, though.
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12:00 You're now known as TheWatcher[afk]
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15:30
< ToxicFrog>
This is cool/scary: http://www.ocert.org/advisories/ocert-2011-003.html
15:31
< ToxicFrog>
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R2Cq3CLI6H8
15:31 * jerith has been learning All About Fonts.
15:32
< jerith>
I now have a version of DejaVu Mono with 13pt embedded bitmaps that suck less than the generated ones.
15:32
< jerith>
This has taken me the entire day.
15:32 * TheWatcher[afk] eyes that advisory
15:34
< TheWatcher[afk]>
That is pretty cool, yeah
15:34<~Vornicus> jerith: nice.
15:35 Kindamoody|afk is now known as Kindamoody
15:35 * jerith attempts the Bold variant now.
15:36
< jerith>
Turns out it's *really* hard to make pretty characters in 8x13 pixels.
15:43<~Vornicus> I don't find that surprising
16:29 Kindamoody is now known as Kindamoody|Gaming
16:37
< McM[xmas]>
It took me a while to realize you didn't mean, like, NES platformer heroes.
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16:49
< jerith>
McM[xmas]: Yes, those too.
16:50
< jerith>
I can eve use the DejaVu build scripts, once I've done a bit of hacking around in them.
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19:05
< Kindamoody>
Anyone here familiar with mIRC scripting? (I can't remember, but I think I've asked before.) I can't get $fread to work. All it seems to return is a 0 or a 1. :/
19:06
< Number3>
Have you checked the manual?
19:06
< ToxicFrog>
I'm not familiar with mIRC scripting, but if that's just a thin wrapper around libc fread(), it's going to be stuffing the data into some buffer and returning a success/fail code.
19:06
< ToxicFrog>
Also, that.
19:07
< Kindamoody>
Manual. I've just checked tutorials in various places. o_o
19:09
< ToxicFrog>
when you want to know about some specific function - in general, not just in mIRC - the reference manual should usually be your first stop
19:11
< Kindamoody>
I've just been looking at tutorials for mIRC scripting, I've never seen any manual.
19:11
< Kindamoody>
And I've been looking at other people's scripts...
19:13
< ToxicFrog>
So...look for the manual? Presumably it's either built in or on the mIRC website.
19:14<~Vornicus> Press f1
19:14
< ToxicFrog>
(...there is a manual somewhere, right?)
19:15<~Vornicus> Everything is in there
19:16<~Vornicus> $fread is in Contents/mIRC Scripts/File Handling
19:16<~Vornicus> It's also in the index.
19:16
< Kindamoody>
Oh. In mIRC itself! o_o
19:16 * Vornicus patpats kimo
19:16
< Kindamoody>
lol
19:17 * Kindamoody hugs Vorn: "Thanks!" ^^
19:17
< Kindamoody>
Goodnight... it's actually past my bedtime. :)
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23:31 Reiver [orthianz@3CF3A5.E1CD01.C6689C.33956A] has quit [Ping timeout: 121 seconds]
23:32 Reiver [orthianz@3CF3A5.E1CD01.C6689C.33956A] has joined #code
--- Log closed Fri Dec 30 00:00:15 2011
code logs -> 2011 -> Thu, 29 Dec 2011< code.20111228.log - code.20111230.log >

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