| --- Log opened Mon Sep 19 00:00:06 2011 |
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| 00:26 | <@McMartin> | TF: OK. If you are That Kind Of Program on Windows, you should be a service |
| 00:27 | <@McMartin> | Services and applications are fundamentally different things in Windows - they even have different entry points - so yeah, this doesn't map. |
| 00:27 | < ToxicFrog> | McMartin: right; the question is how you deal with programs that aren't services, but which you still need to schedule. |
| 00:27 | <@McMartin> | "Windows isn't POSIX, sorry." |
| 00:28 | < ToxicFrog> | (the original question was "I have a windows program that downloads and installs games; I want it to only do this at times of day when I have unlimited bandwidth; it has no built-in scheduling mechanism and doesn't auto-start downloads when it first starts") |
| 00:28 | <@McMartin> | Windows only *barely* has the concept of a background-process application. |
| 00:29 | < ToxicFrog> | (in POSIX the answer is "if it reacts sensibly to the connection dropping in mid-download, start it going and then schedule it to be STOPped and CONTed at the appropriate times") |
| 00:29 | <@McMartin> | Yeah, I'd probably do start/kill and then bot the UI by finding its GO button. =/ |
| 00:47 | | kwsn\PACKERS is now known as kwsn |
| 00:49 | <@Lingerance> | That's horrible. |
| 00:49 | <@Lingerance> | Being able to pause execution would be a much nicer solution. |
| 00:51 | <@celticminstrel> | What's the C macro for checking for OSX? |
| 00:51 | <@Lingerance> | Another possible solution is QoS, but that starts getting into the migh amount of effort territory. |
| 00:52 | | You're now known as TheWatcher[T-2] |
| 01:01 | <@celticminstrel> | Never mind, found the macro. |
| 01:14 | <@McMartin> | Lingerance: If we're assuming the developer put in effort, we don't have this problem in the first place |
| 01:14 | | Finerty is now known as Vornicus |
| 01:15 | | You're now known as TheWatcher[zZzZ] |
| 01:15 | <@McMartin> | If I were writing a user-mode schedulable application, I'd let you program it to be schedulable and also have a mode in which its only window is on the systray. |
| 01:15 | <@McMartin> | (In Windows) |
| 01:16 | <@McMartin> | This also solves the problem one often has with services in Windows, which is that all services run in an entirely different session from the user stuff, and "session" is a stronger divider than "Desktop" or "Window Station", so it can't actually communicate directly with the user at all. |
| 01:17 | <@McMartin> | (This is, strictly speaking, a feature, but it is often a very inconvenient one.) |
| 01:23 | <@McMartin> | ... right, also, the other reason SIGSTOP wouldn't work is because every application in Windows is GUI. |
| 01:23 | <@McMartin> | SIGSTOP is another word for "The application is not responding"~ |
| 01:23 | <@celticminstrel> | The only issue I can see is that if I give this Eclipse project to someone else, it probably won't build... |
| 01:24 | <@celticminstrel> | Because OpenGL and co will be in different places. |
| 01:25 | <@celticminstrel> | Is there a way to deal with this? |
| 01:26 | <@Lingerance> | pkg-config |
| 01:26 | <@celticminstrel> | ? |
| 01:26 | <@Lingerance> | ... or cmake |
| 01:26 | <@McMartin> | Um |
| 01:27 | <@McMartin> | Did you miss the "Eclipse project" part of this? |
| 01:27 | <@celticminstrel> | That's what I was wondering. |
| 01:27 | <@Lingerance> | pkg-config is a program that tells you where a promgra's files are. |
| 01:27 | <@McMartin> | Yes, and Eclipse is an IDE that doesn't give two fucks what OS it's running on. |
| 01:27 | <@Lingerance> | If your IDE can't handle using pdg-config it sucks IMO. |
| 01:27 | <@celticminstrel> | The person it's being given to will probably be running Windows. |
| 01:27 | <@McMartin> | And if they aren't, they're probably running OS X. |
| 01:27 | <@celticminstrel> | I, however, am on a Mac. |
| 01:27 | <@McMartin> | Neither of which uses pkg-config natively, or, in some cases, at all. |
| 01:28 | <@McMartin> | That said, celticminstrel, OpenGL *is* guaranteed to be installed on any OS X or Windows machine that is of the OS X era. |
| 01:28 | <@McMartin> | ... is this a Java or a C project? |
| 01:28 | <@celticminstrel> | Yes, I realize; the issue is that it's in a different place. |
| 01:28 | <@celticminstrel> | It's C++. |
| 01:28 | <@McMartin> | Oh, so you've got the whole "framework" silliness going on |
| 01:28 | <@celticminstrel> | I can safely assume the library is installed. |
| 01:28 | <@celticminstrel> | Yes. |
| 01:29 | <@celticminstrel> | The framework stuff. |
| 01:29 | <@McMartin> | Yeah. |
| 01:29 | <@celticminstrel> | I got Eclipse to recognize that, at least. |
| 01:29 | <@McMartin> | I'd say "what you can't assume on Windows is what compiler they're using under the hood" - and as such, there's no single solution. |
| 01:29 | <@McMartin> | The most general for an IDE is to have an environment variable that says where the OpenGL headers live. |
| 01:30 | <@McMartin> | But it's not too bad to just say "you'll have to tweak library directories". |
| 01:30 | <@McMartin> | Just pre-tweak it on the OS X side so that you either aren't putting the framework names into the #include, or you are only doing so if __APPLE__ is defined. |
| 01:30 | <@celticminstrel> | I think the computers are using MinGW, but not sure. |
| 01:30 | <@celticminstrel> | The main issue is the linker, actually. |
| 01:31 | <@McMartin> | Hmm. |
| 01:31 | <@celticminstrel> | I did some preprocessor stuff for includes to work. |
| 01:31 | <@McMartin> | OK, good |
| 01:31 | <@McMartin> | THat's the biggie. |
| 01:31 | <@McMartin> | Hrm, I've never used Eclipse for C++, but isn't there an "external libraries" that you give by name? |
| 01:31 | <@McMartin> | Which will be -framework OpenGL on Mac and -lopengl on MinGW/Linux automatically? |
| 01:32 | <@celticminstrel> | Sadly it seems not. It has a section for adding -l entries. |
| 01:32 | <@celticminstrel> | But if I add OpenGL there, ld complains. |
| 01:32 | <@McMartin> | Yeah, OK |
| 01:32 | <@McMartin> | I'd say "note it in the README" |
| 01:33 | <@McMartin> | If someone gives a damn, they can fix the project so it works on Windows - which will probably break Mac - and then you can have two project files tracking the same thing. =P |
| 01:33 | <@McMartin> | MSVS solves this with architecture profiles within a project file. |
| 01:33 | <@celticminstrel> | I can ask if that's acceptable, but I dunno; the markers might just click "build", see linker errors, and give an automatic 0. |
| 01:34 | <@McMartin> | Oh, I see |
| 01:34 | <@McMartin> | ... um |
| 01:34 | <@McMartin> | The markers aren't doing all this on publically available machines? |
| 01:34 | <@celticminstrel> | I'm guessing they would be, yeah. |
| 01:34 | <@McMartin> | OK, I'd missed the "this is for a class" part |
| 01:34 | <@celticminstrel> | I might've missed it too. :P |
| 01:34 | <@celticminstrel> | Sorry. |
| 01:35 | <@McMartin> | My previous comments are for "publishing in an open-source repository" |
| 01:35 | <@McMartin> | As a former marker and TA, then, there is only one piece of advice. |
| 01:35 | <@McMartin> | Never turn anything in that you haven't confirmed on the marking machine. |
| 01:35 | <@McMartin> | If you can't do the work *on* the machine in the first place in a graphics lab or whatnot, then you have to have as your last step "take it in and make it work", then submit that |
| 01:36 | <@celticminstrel> | Eh, okay. I guess I can manage that. |
| 01:36 | <@Kazriko> | Heh, back when I was in college, you couldn't access the machine that they graded the stuff on for the most part... |
| 01:36 | <@Kazriko> | because they did it on their office computers. |
| 01:37 | <@celticminstrel> | Well, I don't know with 100% certainty that it'll be graded in the lab, but I'd guess that's where they would do it. |
| 01:37 | <@McMartin> | That seems like it's just asking for trouble, depending on the class. |
| 01:37 | <@McMartin> | If you're linking OpenGL, presumably this is a graphics class of some kind. |
| 01:37 | <@celticminstrel> | Yeah. |
| 01:37 | <@McMartin> | If they're doing the Kazriko approach to a graphics class they are officially on crack. |
| 01:37 | <@celticminstrel> | Heh. |
| 01:38 | <@Kazriko> | wasn't my approach, the stupid professors. :P |
| 01:38 | <@McMartin> | (Stanford had a specific lab Just For This, and actually encouraged graphics students to not work at home.) |
| 01:38 | <@celticminstrel> | They do have a lab for this. |
| 01:38 | <@celticminstrel> | I forget which one, but it's in the course outline I believe, so easy to look up. |
| 01:39 | <@McMartin> | Yeah, Do That. |
| 01:39 | <@McMartin> | It's just less pain for all involved. |
| 01:39 | | * McMartin eyes this script |
| 01:39 | <@McMartin> | Who the fuck thanks God for the help in seeing them through writing a bash script |
| 01:39 | <@McMartin> | This is not a Miss America pageant |
| 01:39 | <@Tamber> | ...oh dear. |
| 01:40 | <@celticminstrel> | Wait what. |
| 01:40 | <@McMartin> | The last line of this script: |
| 01:40 | <@McMartin> | # Thanks God for help :) and guys lhunath, geirha, Tramp and others from irc #bash on freenode.net |
| 01:40 | <@McMartin> | Apparently God hacks bash. |
| 01:40 | <@McMartin> | Who knew? |
| 01:41 | <@Tamber> | "Thank god it's not TECO..."? =p |
| 01:41 | <@McMartin> | Apparently He isn't big on Perl either |
| 01:41 | <@Tamber> | *chuckles* |
| 01:42 | <@McMartin> | I would have figured him to use /bin/smite, myself |
| 01:42 | <@McMartin> | Bashing is kind of unclassy. |
| 01:42 | <@Vornicus> | Now I'm wondering what that does. |
| 01:42 | <@celticminstrel> | XD |
| 01:42 | <@McMartin> | celticminstrel: Oh, right, I forgot the other bit |
| 01:43 | <@McMartin> | If your code *doesn't* work for the marker and they grade you down for this you can give "it works on the damn lab machines" as a defense |
| 01:43 | <@celticminstrel> | Makes sense. |
| 01:43 | <@McMartin> | And while I was a jaded TA in many a way, that argument tends to carry the day~ |
| 01:43 | <@celticminstrel> | If I could get a project that works on both without tweaking though, it'd be nice. :/ |
| 01:44 | <@McMartin> | Yeah, unfortunately my eclipse-fu is weak here |
| 01:44 | <@McMartin> | And I don't know how to do it in general without different build processes for each platform, tbh |
| 01:44 | <@McMartin> | If I fix my host platform I can do crossbuilds, but if I have multiple host platforms I tend to need one makefile or similar for each. |
| 01:45 | <@celticminstrel> | Well, I can't see a way to do it. I tried switching to MinGW and changing things there, but they were still changed when I switched back the the Mac stuff. |
| 01:45 | <@McMartin> | Yeah, it wouldn't be that transparent. |
| 01:45 | <@McMartin> | It would be some kind of switch that lets you mess with it. |
| 01:45 | <@McMartin> | This may not be part of Eclipse. |
| 01:45 | <@McMartin> | So, yeah, lab machines. |
| 01:49 | < ToxicFrog> | ^ This. |
| 01:58 | <@gnolam> | BSG has taught me that gods prefer COBOL. |
| 01:59 | <@Tamber> | Just for laughs? |
| 01:59 | <@Tamber> | Or because they get to shout it onto stone tablets? |
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| 02:01 | <@gnolam> | In the BSG universe, people worship "the Lords of COBOL". |
| 02:02 | | * Tamber ponders this for a moment. |
| 02:02 | <@gnolam> | (Sure, they spell it with a 'K', but that's obviously a typo. Or they're running KDE.) |
| 02:03 | <@Tamber> | the Lords of COBOL, and their dread prophet K'thulhu? |
| 02:04 | <@gnolam> | "You can drop those stupid K prefixes around me." |
| 02:05 | | * Tamber has a minor thought-eldrich-horror... Qt, and C'thulhu, in the same sentence... |
| 02:06 | <@McMartin> | This would be pronounced "Cute-thulhu", and there are at least two incarnations of that. |
| 02:06 | <@Tamber> | XD |
| 02:07 | <@McMartin> | Hello Cthulhu is probably the most famous. |
| 02:07 | <@McMartin> | I have a bit of a soft spot for Pok?thulhu, though. |
| 02:08 | <@McMartin> | If only for "It's a bad idea to have multiple Hastursaurs in the same room!" |
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| 04:13 | < Janus> | I am in a pickle! |
| 04:15 | <@Vornicus> | Tell us more |
| 04:18 | <@Derakon> | I generally recommend against self-pickling. |
| 04:23 | < Janus> | It's not so bad actually once you get past the pruning. On an unrelated note! What's the best way to store a ... um. It's like an array. But it has arrays in it. And they have arrays too. And those have arrays as well. |
| 04:24 | <@Vornicus> | Are all the arrays the same size, in any particular direction? |
| 04:24 | <@Vornicus> | (which is to say do you have a hypercuboid, or is it all over the place?) |
| 04:25 | < Janus> | Well, they are the same, and not. Um! Like. level 1 has 2 arrays. level 2 has 32. level 3 has 8. And level 4 has 4! |
| 04:25 | <@Derakon> | Language? |
| 04:26 | <@Derakon> | I mean, for Python I'd just hit up the pickle module. |
| 04:26 | <@Vornicus> | Janus: what I mean is |
| 04:27 | <@Vornicus> | Could you, if you had a monitor that could project that way, could you render your data in the same sense that minecraft renders its chunks? |
| 04:27 | <@Vornicus> | Or in the same sense a chessboard is rendered? |
| 04:27 | <@Vornicus> | If not, then you're best off with, you know. pointers pointers pointers, unfortunately. |
| 04:28 | <@Derakon> | For example, the list [[1], [1, 2, 3], [1, 2]] has variable dimensionality and is thus more unpleasant to store. |
| 04:28 | <@Derakon> | Compared to the list [[1, 2], [3, 4], [5, 6]]. |
| 04:28 | < Janus> | You could actually! And it'd be a ... what is a cube that transcends space-time? |
| 04:28 | <@Derakon> | Hypercube. |
| 04:28 | < Janus> | ... that's a fitting name. |
| 04:28 | <@Tamber> | A headache. |
| 04:29 | < Janus> | It'd just be kind of lop-sided shaped though. |
| 04:30 | <@Vornicus> | Right. Okay, here's a couple of things: if you're working in C, you may be better off (in some senses) with a 1d array and a function that knows what the lengths are. |
| 04:30 | < Janus> | Never though of using pointers of pointers though. I got all the arrays in a single array. ... my brain just kind of shutdown once I tried stuffing it in four for loops |
| 04:30 | <@Derakon> | What language are you using? |
| 04:30 | <@Derakon> | Let's get that sorted. |
| 04:30 | < Janus> | C++ |
| 04:30 | <@Derakon> | Okay. |
| 04:30 | <@Derakon> | And what is the datatype being stored? |
| 04:31 | < Janus> | unsigned char |
| 04:31 | <@Derakon> | Right. |
| 04:31 | <@celticminstrel> | Sorry, is it a hypercube or is it jagged? |
| 04:31 | < Janus> | It's a hyper... rectangle? |
| 04:31 | <@celticminstrel> | Because you said that, and then you said it'd be lop-sided. |
| 04:32 | < Janus> | I assume cubes must be the same size on all 8 sides at least. ... wait. Hyperprism is that a thing? It has all right angles. Man this is confusing. It's a cube basically! |
| 04:33 | <@Vornicus> | "hypercuboid" has possibly different edge lengths. THe oid does that. |
| 04:33 | <@Derakon> | Something broadly like this should work: http://pastebin.com/kDGCKGaY |
| 04:33 | <@celticminstrel> | Okay, so there'd be no points in the hypercuboid that don't have a corresponding entry in the array, which is exactly what a multidimensional array does. |
| 04:34 | <@Derakon> | Of course, you come out of that with a char*, not a char***** or whatever per the dimensionality of your array. |
| 04:35 | < Janus> | Oh hey, that makes sense! |
| 04:35 | <@celticminstrel> | Well yes, that one would work too. |
| 04:35 | <@Derakon> | Probably easier to put each datum on its own line. |
| 04:36 | <@celticminstrel> | And dodges the confusion that an actual multidimensional array can generate. |
| 04:36 | <@Vornicus> | Hooray, five-star programming. |
| 04:36 | <@celticminstrel> | XD |
| 04:39 | < Janus> | Aha! It doesn't crash! That's a start! I have no idea if it put everything in where it was supposed to go, but I can figure that out later. |
| 04:39 | <@Derakon> | Heh. |
| 04:41 | < Janus> | Thanks! |
| 04:45 | < Janus> | ... (whoops, it wasn't unsigned char at all. It was pointer to a class. So it really would've been five-stars, aha) |
| 04:47 | <@Derakon> | Ah. serializing classes is much trickier. |
| 04:52 | < Janus> | I wonder if I'm doing it right with arrays. The whole thing with 4 arrays, was there needs to be 1 object for every possible combonation of 4 different variables |
| 04:53 | <@celticminstrel> | Sounds like you're doing it right to me. |
| 04:56 | < Janus> | And inside every one of those 2048 objects is a 64 byte genetic string. That would need to be trained over several hundred generations. I wonder if I'll be asking too much of my computer, aha |
| 04:57 | <@Derakon> | 2048*64 is only 128KB, so RAM-wise that's trivial. |
| 04:58 | <@Derakon> | 500 generations of each one would be about a million steps, though. If each step took half a millisecond, you're looking at 512 seconds of runtime. |
| 04:58 | <@Derakon> | (Half a millisecond would actually be fairly significant) |
| 04:59 | < Janus> | ... oh no. xD |
| 04:59 | <@celticminstrel> | !a & !b & !c & !d is equivalent to !(a|b|c|d), right? |
| 05:00 | <@Derakon> | Yes. |
| 05:00 | < Janus> | I didn't figure in time all that seriously. Aha... if each generation takes 3 seconds, I'm looking at a month straight. |
| 05:01 | <@Derakon> | 860k generations? |
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| 05:02 | < Janus> | Each generation tests to see how close a creature reaches a specific point, which takes place in 2D physics |
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| 05:05 | < Janus> | So at the very least, I think it'd take more than 2 seconds or so each time |
| 05:06 | <@Derakon> | Have you completed the test function? Time it and see how long it actually takes. |
| 05:06 | < Janus> | Even if I get it down to half a second though, it's still a long time. Oh bow |
| 05:06 | <@Derakon> | Computers are fast. :) |
| 05:06 | <@Derakon> | Also, this kind of thing is ideally-suited to multithreading. |
| 05:06 | < Janus> | Not yet, and ... actually, I didn't think of that. I can definitely split this as many ways as needed |
| 05:06 | <@Derakon> | If you have a dual-core processor with hyperthreading you could cut your runtime to 25% at the cost of rendering the computer unusable for other CPU-intensive tasks. |
| 05:07 | <@Derakon> | (Or toss it in the background reniced to 19 and it'll just chew up your spare cycles) |
| 05:08 | < Janus> | Aha... I can even <s>coerce</s> ask my friends to take care of some of it. Then it's just a day or so! |
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| 15:39 | | * TheWatcher hrms, wonders if he can pull off `my @sorted = sort $sortfns -> {$mode} -> {$way} @{$values};`, goes to try it... |
| 15:50 | <@TheWatcher> | hm, no |
| 15:51 | | Stalker [Z@Nightstar-3602cf5a.cust.comxnet.dk] has quit [[NS] Quit: If the world didn't suck, we'd all fall off.] |
| 15:59 | <@TheWatcher> | Aha |
| 15:59 | <@TheWatcher> | This will be much neater than a mass of if()/elsif()s |
| 17:38 | | celticminstrel [celticminst@Nightstar-5d22ab1d.cable.rogers.com] has quit [[NS] Quit: KABOOM! It seems that I have exploded. Please wait while I reinstall the universe.] |
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| 19:23 | | Kindamoody|out is now known as Kindamoody |
| 19:31 | | * kwsn hates how EFI uses unicode strings |
| 19:33 | < gnolam> | Which is? |
| 19:37 | | gnolam [lenin@Nightstar-202a5047.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 121 seconds] |
| 19:38 | | gnolam [lenin@9D46A2.F4E9D7.E4B4CF.2072AD] has joined #code |
| 19:38 | <@kwsn> | CHAR16 vs CHAR8 |
| 19:47 | | Kindamoody is now known as Kindamoody[zZz] |
| 19:55 | < gnolam> | It uses UTF-16? |
| 19:56 | < gnolam> | Or UCS-2? |
| 20:00 | <@kwsn> | not sure, just says unicode |
| 20:24 | | You're now known as TheWatcher[afk] |
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| 20:41 | < gnolam> | Hmm. I hadn't noticed this before, but Google Maps is very inconsistent in its naming. |
| 20:42 | < gnolam> | Countries are either displayed as "Own Name\n(English Name)" or just "English Name". With no apparent logic in which ones get dual and which get single naming. |
| 20:44 | | Reiver [orthianz@3CF3A5.E1CD01.C6689C.33956A] has quit [Ping timeout: 121 seconds] |
| 20:46 | < gnolam> | ... and in rare cases, the single name can also be "Own Name" (e.g. Per?). |
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| 21:01 | <@Alek> | because it's nearly identical to the English Name. XD |
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| 21:39 | | * gnolam throws the ? in Per? at Alek. |
| 21:39 | | gnolam is now known as The |
| 21:39 | | * The attack is a diacritical hit! |
| 21:39 | | The is now known as gnolam |
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| 21:45 | <@Alek> | I did say nearly. XD |
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| 22:12 | | You're now known as TheWatcher |
| 22:17 | | Derakon [chriswei@Nightstar-f68d7eb4.ca.comcast.net] has joined #code |
| 22:26 | < Derakon> | "Handy trick: one year is close to pi * 10^7 seconds" |
| 22:27 | < Derakon> | And it is, too -- a year, minus leapyears, etc., is 31536000 seconds. |
| 22:36 | | * TheWatcher hits 5198 lines of working code |
| 22:36 | <@TheWatcher> | Not too bad for 6 days |
| 22:43 | < Derakon> | And here I am at a round 100, assuming you count the IRC transcript I included as a comment. |
| 22:43 | < Derakon> | Well, for this project anyway. |
| 22:44 | < Derakon> | A little more counting other changes. |
| 22:44 | <@TheWatcher> | Yeah, well, I have Major Hard Deadline to meet >.< |
| 22:45 | < gnolam> | As long as Major Hard Deadline doesn't start taking orders from General Protection Fault. |
| 22:45 | <@TheWatcher> | Heh |
| 22:47 | <@TheWatcher> | (I better get some kind of bloody bonus for this thing, if I don't there are going to be Words about 'remembering' imporant projects two weeks before they are due) |
| 22:48 | <@Alek> | or even from Kernel Panic. |
| 22:48 | < Derakon> | Colonel, I think you mean. |
| 22:49 | <@Alek> | you say it the same. XD |
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| 23:21 | <@jerith> | "Nobody can remember how many seconds there are in a year, but most people could probably remember that to within half a persent, there are pi seconds in a nanocentury." |
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| 23:25 | <@Simon_Shine> | jerith, heh. |
| 23:27 | <@Simon_Shine> | jerith, I like the term microfortnight (1.2096 seconds) |
| 23:29 | <@jerith> | There are about 1.5 millifortnights in an hour. |
| 23:29 | <@jerith> | Sleeptime. |
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| --- Log closed Tue Sep 20 00:00:22 2011 |