| --- Log opened Tue Jul 26 00:00:58 2011 |
| 00:03 | | You're now known as TheWatcher[zZzZ] |
| 00:23 | < ToxicFrog> | Reiver: the whole point of bittorrent is that as you add more peers it goes faster; are you sure you're allowing incoming connections? Are you sure your ISP isn't throttling or RSTing bittorrent traffic? |
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| 00:33 | | * kwsn waves |
| 00:48 | | Kindamoody is now known as Kindamoody[zZz] |
| 01:11 | | * gnolam stabs Google. |
| 01:11 | < gnolam> | STOP FUCKING WITH MY GODDAMN SEARCH TERMS |
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| 01:38 | < celticminstrel> | Heh. |
| 01:38 | < celticminstrel> | + is your friend. <_< |
| 01:38 | < celticminstrel> | Google doesn't like your search term? Throw a + in front. |
| 01:38 | < celticminstrel> | That usually makes it behave. |
| 01:39 | < gnolam> | I fucking shouldn't have to. |
| 01:39 | < gnolam> | The whole point of Google instead of, say, AltaVista was |
| 01:39 | < gnolam> | A) Simple, no-nonsense interface |
| 01:39 | < celticminstrel> | Well, it is simple. |
| 01:39 | < gnolam> | B) Relevant results /without/ having to prefix every damn search term with pluses and minuses |
| 01:39 | < gnolam> | They've fucked both things up. |
| 01:40 | < celticminstrel> | And B seems difficult to do in a consistent manner. |
| 01:40 | < gnolam> | Difficult for whom? For me, yes. For them... NO, STOP REPLACING MY SEARCH TERMS |
| 01:41 | < celticminstrel> | Well, I suppose not replacing them but suggesting that you might have misspelled would be better. |
| 01:41 | < gnolam> | Yeah, that would be great. That's how it used to be. |
| 01:42 | < celticminstrel> | Though you can change some things in preferences too, is there nothing related to that? |
| 01:42 | < celticminstrel> | |
| 01:43 | < gnolam> | Nowadays, you might still get suggestions like that once in a while. When you're searching for something obscure... and Google has overridden your overrides and decided to search for something else despite your plusses. |
| 01:43 | < celticminstrel> | Eep. |
| 01:45 | < Vornicus> | 6/me still hasn't figured out how gnolam has so much trouble with google. |
| 01:46 | < Alek> | Brin and Page hate him. |
| 01:47 | < gnolam> | Because for some reason, I keep using them. |
| 01:48 | < gnolam> | Any decent alternatives around? |
| 01:48 | < gnolam> | Bing's search results were pretty poor, last time I tried them. |
| 01:50 | < McMartin> | Yahoo wraps it with some post processing. |
| 01:52 | < ToxicFrog> | Google really badly needs a "just search for the terms as entered" setting. |
| 01:52 | < McMartin> | Quoting my search term has, for me, always done exactly this. |
| 01:53 | < ToxicFrog> | "put quotes around every word you enter, just in case" is a workaround, and an irritatingly tedious one, not a solution. |
| 01:53 | < McMartin> | Well, there are two major differences here |
| 01:53 | < ToxicFrog> | I mean I guess I could write a greasemonkey script to do it for me, but I shouldn't have to. |
| 01:54 | < McMartin> | (a) I'm usually searching for phrases, so it's one set of quotes, in a search type that is *always* not the default. |
| 01:54 | < McMartin> | (b) I'm searching for things made out of English words. |
| 01:54 | < ToxicFrog> | Yeah, the case I generally have trouble with is "I'm searching for a bunch of related words, some of which are actually preprocessor macros or the like which google helpfully corrects" |
| 01:55 | < McMartin> | When searching for things that are not part of any natural language, this seems tailor made for the + modifier~ |
| 01:56 | < gnolam> | And if you're using natural language, Google "helpfully" corrects all those words which have very specific meanings into what it thinks are synonyms (but are entirely irrelevant). |
| 01:56 | < ToxicFrog> | That too! |
| 01:56 | < gnolam> | So you have to use all pluses, all the time. Which is a Pain. In. The. Ass. |
| 01:56 | < McMartin> | Since variations of that have been a core part of the Google algorithm since day 1, I find it hard to hold that against them. |
| 01:56 | < gnolam> | And so, so unnecessary. |
| 01:56 | < McMartin> | Doing that was why they were better than AltaVista. |
| 01:57 | < ToxicFrog> | In general I am of the opinion that, as a matter of principle, warning me is fine, offering alternatives is fine, but silently changing the arguments provided and then acting on the changed arguments is not kosher. |
| 01:57 | < gnolam> | Amen. |
| 01:57 | < ToxicFrog> | McMartin: if so, then something has changed that makes it a lot more obtrusive and a lot less useful. |
| 01:57 | < McMartin> | Google Search is for "pages about X", not "pages containing X". Google's original algorithm was "pages that link top-ranked pages contain X", IIRC. |
| 01:57 | < McMartin> | Often that meant the page itself would too, but not always. |
| 01:59 | < McMartin> | TF: That started being an issue around 2003, when people would shit all over their meta tags in an effort to be the #1 search result for all terms. |
| 01:59 | < McMartin> | Since then it's been an arms race. -_- |
| 01:59 | < McMartin> | It's possible they've deployed something that's trying to counter comment spam and has instead downgraded appropriate top hits. |
| 02:00 | < McMartin> | I can't speak to it because I don't know what they're *actually* doing and, as noted, I never actually see the results you describe. |
| 02:01 | < McMartin> | The closest I ever get to it is "no match for this phrase, here's the results if you didn't quote it" |
| 02:01 | < ToxicFrog> | McMartin: I'm fine with it being "pages about X", the problem is when I want "pages about X" and it gives me "pages about Q". |
| 02:02 | < ToxicFrog> | Because it thinks that X is either a typo of Q or a synonym for it, depending. |
| 02:02 | < McMartin> | I'm going to have to demand examples. |
| 02:02 | < McMartin> | The closest I've ever seen to either is when the query as stated is explicitly marked as matching zero documents in the search results. |
| 02:02 | < Derakon> | I've seen what TF's talking about, but I don't have any examples ready at hand. |
| 02:02 | < ToxicFrog> | Next time it happens I'll write it down, then. |
| 02:02 | < Derakon> | They tend to involve things like project names that are clever misspellings. |
| 02:02 | < Derakon> | Or other almost-common-word issues. |
| 02:03 | < ToxicFrog> | (sometimes it also gives me "pages about X and Q", but Q is hugely more popular so I now need to specifically exclude it from the results) |
| 02:03 | < ToxicFrog> | (because otherwise the page about X I was interested in is the 80th search result rather than the second) |
| 02:03 | < McMartin> | (That's going to happen with strict content search as well.) |
| 02:04 | < McMartin> | (If Q is hugely more popular and X and Q appear on the same pages, you're going to get shit until you wipe it out) |
| 02:04 | < gnolam> | Alas, when you do exclude it, it might be that pages about X also happen to contain Q, which means that some things become unsearchable. |
| 02:05 | < McMartin> | If people are dicks about their naming conventions, this is inevitable. |
| 02:05 | < McMartin> | (Also, one other thing that may be relevant: If I'm searching for information on a project, I start at Wiki, not Google.) |
| 02:15 | < ToxicFrog> | McMartin: sorry, I should have said "X or Q" - I search for X, it gives me (set of pages about X) ? (set of pages about Q). The problem is that |about-Q| is much larger than |about-X| and everything in (about-Q - about-X) is useless to me. |
| 02:16 | < ToxicFrog> | In some cases, searching for '"X" -"Q"' works; in others, as gnolam says, the result I'm looking for is actually in (about-X ? about-Q). |
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| 07:12 | | You're now known as TheWatcher |
| 07:15 | < Vornicus> | REIVER |
| 07:15 | < Vornicus> | Do you have a moment to work on that python program we were dealing with |
| 07:17 | < Reiver> | Uh possibly how much is a moment |
| 07:17 | < Reiver> | Is this a "Hey I had a cool idea" thing or a "Hey lets get on with it" |
| 07:19 | < Vornicus> | THis is a Hey Let's Get On With It |
| 07:20 | < Vornicus> | (never mind that right now I've forgotten what we were even up to!) |
| 07:25 | < Reiver> | haha, okay |
| 07:25 | < Reiver> | I think I have half an hour before board games, so sure |
| 07:29 | < Vornicus> | Ok so pastebin what you've got then cuz we need to see it. |
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| 07:32 | < Reiver> | http://pastebin.starforge.co.uk/478 |
| 07:32 | < Vornicus> | woot, all right |
| 07:34 | < Vornicus> | ...man. I'm not even sure what we were up to. |
| 07:36 | < Vornicus> | I think we were looking at changing -- no, that was already done. |
| 07:36 | < Vornicus> | I'm not sure what's left to do, frankly. We probably need more translation things but I'm not sure what. |
| 07:43 | | * Vornicus examines |
| 07:43 | < Vornicus> | Okay so I guess we were working on outputs I guess. |
| 07:45 | < froztbyte> | that's a lot of guessing going on right there |
| 07:45 | < Vornicus> | Only a little |
| 07:45 | < Vornicus> | it's not a wild guess. |
| 07:45 | < froztbyte> | I didn't say it's not educated guessing :) |
| 07:49 | < Vornicus> | Anyway, I guess at this point a good idea would be to throw together the dictionary of results; essentially all we'll do is take that giant horrible "output_values" thing and make all the assignments dictionary key/val assigns instead. |
| 07:51 | < Vornicus> | THis builds us a dictionary, which we can use with string formatting and a "template" file (which we can write later) to create a printable "character sheet" |
| 07:52 | < Reiver> | right |
| 07:52 | < Reiver> | I admit, I sort of lost track of what the heck the program did once we refactored everything to do 'defaults' |
| 07:53 | < Vornicus> | Mmm, that too, we need to rejigger the schema dictionaries to reflect that we can include defaults. |
| 07:53 | < Vornicus> | --not actually necessary. |
| 07:54 | < Vornicus> | SO anyway, in output_values we'll actually want to start with a blank dictionary: results = {} |
| 07:54 | < Vornicus> | and then the assigns that create finalized values, we go results["name"] instead of just name |
| 07:55 | < Reiver> | hm |
| 07:55 | < Vornicus> | THis will take some equivalent rejiggering in other places where we use the finalized values. |
| 07:55 | < Reiver> | Where we do math, you mean? |
| 07:56 | < Reiver> | That shouldn't be too bad. |
| 07:56 | < Vornicus> | Yeah, so |
| 07:56 | < Reiver> | Mostly I'm worried I've missed bits of the math here and there~ |
| 07:56 | < Vornicus> | attackBonus's assign uses strMod, so instead of strMod in there we'll say results[strMod] |
| 07:56 | < Vornicus> | er, with quotes around: results["strMod"] |
| 07:58 | < Vornicus> | DOn't think so. |
| 07:58 | < Reiver> | Good, good |
| 07:59 | < Vornicus> | That's something you note in testing of course~ |
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| 08:02 | < Vornicus> | Anyway once you have that done your next task is to build a template text file, whose format goes approximately like this: whereever you want a field, you put %{fieldname}s |
| 08:03 | < Vornicus> | (this actually gets a little more powerful if you change the s to other things, but we don't really care for now.) |
| 08:03 | < Reiver> | OK, cheers |
| 08:03 | < Reiver> | Alas, I must now depart (for I am told games is actually early) |
| 08:03 | | * Reiver mumbles, apologises, hangs onto this bit for putting the rest in later. |
| 08:03 | < Vornicus> | have fun. |
| 08:03 | < Reiver> | I will! |
| 08:03 | < Reiver> | Sorry 'bout not having longer. |
| 08:04 | < Vornicus> | No worries |
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| 15:48 | < gnolam> | Today's "fuck you, Google, they're not the same thing": "growable" VS "growing". |
| 15:53 | < Reiver> | ? |
| 16:00 | < froztbyte> | autocorrection, at a guess |
| 16:20 | < ToxicFrog> | Reiver: google has a tendency to automatically "correct" your search terms, and consequently end up searching for something completely different. |
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| 21:07 | < jerith> | Google has also acquired an annoying tendency to completely ignore one of the search terms when it feels like it. |
| 21:08 | < jerith> | So a search for "stuff about foo relating to bar" can return all sorts of things about foo that have no reference to bar whatsoever. |
| 21:08 | < jerith> | Then I have to add quotes and plusses and things. |
| 21:08 | | * jerith muttergrumbles. |
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| 21:48 | < gnolam> | Yay! |
| 21:49 | < gnolam> | I don't have to care about the detailed Auger spectra. |
| 21:49 | < jerith> | \o/ |
| 21:49 | < gnolam> | (https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Auger_electron ) |
| 21:50 | < gnolam> | That would have meant yet /another/ data file to parse, and more probabilities to calculate. |
| 21:50 | | * jerith casts auguries to discover what gnolam /does/ have to care about. |
| 21:52 | | * gnolam brandishes an auger threateningly. |
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| 22:47 | < gnolam> | Oh hey, Indie Bundle #3. |
| 22:52 | < gnolam> | Think I'll give it a pass though. |
| 22:55 | < McMartin> | The only game on it I know is good is VVVVVV. |
| 22:55 | < gnolam> | Two of the games in this bundle don't even have working websites. |
| 22:55 | < gnolam> | As for the rest... |
| 22:56 | < gnolam> | While Cogs looks extremely polished, it's still just a sliding block puzzle - and I /hate/ sliding block puzzles. |
| 22:56 | < McMartin> | Yeah, Cogs is not good |
| 22:56 | < McMartin> | It's more than "just" sliding block, but only barely. |
| 22:56 | < McMartin> | (Because they're semimechanical many of them admit multiple solutions) |
| 22:59 | < ToxicFrog> | Cogs is basically the best possible sliding block puzzle, and it mixes things up a fair bit (blocks on the faces of a polyhedron, two-sided blocks, etc), but if you don't like block puzzles it's not going to be at all fun. |
| 23:00 | < McMartin> | Yeah, "best possible sliding block puzzle game" is a p. low ceiling |
| 23:01 | < ToxicFrog> | (personally, I think it could be fun a game if the challenge were "figuring out the solution" rather than "moving everything into the right place", but as it is...no.) |
| 23:02 | < McMartin> | I never did derive the proper technique for sixteen puzzles. |
| 23:02 | < ToxicFrog> | Hammerfight I might as well try out right now so that I can give an informed opinion on it. |
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| 23:50 | < gnolam> | NGhghgh |
| 23:50 | < gnolam> | Dammit. Specified the wrong particle type. Now I have to do this run all over again. :P |
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| --- Log closed Wed Jul 27 00:00:13 2011 |