| --- Log opened Wed Jul 13 00:00:46 2011 |
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| 00:51 | < McMartin> | Derakon: If you want to serialize widgets, you want Qt, Glade, or WPF >_> |
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| 16:20 | <@froztbyte> | <pjdelport> whee, closure conversion |
| 16:20 | <@froztbyte> | -*- pjdelport is having adventures in PHP-land |
| 16:20 | <@froztbyte> | <pjdelport> equal parts horrifying and hilarious |
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| 17:04 | < gnolam> | Huh. 2 Gy/day. And we haven't even gotten to the betas yet. |
| 17:04 | < gnolam> | *Gy/year |
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| 18:48 | | * gnolam stabstabstabs google. |
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| 18:55 | < AnnoDomini> | What did it do this time? |
| 18:57 | < gnolam> | The same. |
| 18:57 | < gnolam> | Silently replacing my search terms, making me feel like I'm using AltaVista in 1998. |
| 18:58 | < gnolam> | I have to use quotes and plusses for everything I actually want to search for, and then add a dozen minuses for irrelevant shit Google throws at me anyway. |
| 19:00 | < Tamber> | "Don't be silly, you didn't mean to put that there; what you /obviously/ meant was this instead: ${COMPLETELY_UNRELATED}" |
| 19:19 | < Vornicus-Latens> | I do not know how you have so much trouble with google. |
| 19:27 | < AnnoDomini> | I'm a mystified as well. |
| 19:28 | < gnolam> | By still using it, against better judgement. |
| 19:29 | < Tamber> | Is there an option somewhere to stop it from going "Searched for ${MANGLED_SEARCH}. Search for ${ACTUAL_DAMN_SEARCH_TERMS} instead?"? |
| 19:29 | < Tamber> | As in, "stop fucking with my search and go look up what I asked you to!" :p |
| 19:29 | < gnolam> | Not that I know. |
| 19:30 | < McMartin> | I have literally never had it do this |
| 19:30 | < Tamber> | o.O |
| 19:30 | < McMartin> | The closest it has ever gotten to that is a button to click that says "did you mean ${MANGLED_SEARCH_TERMS}" |
| 19:30 | < Tamber> | Huh. |
| 19:30 | < gnolam> | ... how? |
| 19:30 | < McMartin> | I didn't do anything. |
| 19:30 | < gnolam> | The "Did you really mean?" option was great. |
| 19:30 | < Tamber> | See, it automagically searches for the mangled ones for me, and asks if I want to search for the non-mangled ones. -.- |
| 19:31 | < Tamber> | Indeed. |
| 19:31 | < McMartin> | Hence my "I don't know what you are doing here" |
| 19:31 | < Tamber> | "Using google" |
| 19:31 | < Tamber> | :p |
| 19:31 | < gnolam> | See, for the rest of us, Google still occasionally asks a "Did you really mean?" question. But only when it's overridden my goddamned overrides. |
| 19:31 | < Tamber> | I don't mind the "Did you really mean?" option, since that occasionally comes in handy. But to make the assumption that I actually wanted to search for that, rather than what I searched for... |
| 19:32 | < gnolam> | Is absolutely, godawfully, the developer-should-be-castratedly bad. |
| 19:32 | < Tamber> | (And, since I'm grumbling about it it won't happen now, because that would allow me to provide an example!) |
| 19:32 | < McMartin> | I don't even see a setting to toggle for this, except maybe Google Instant. |
| 19:33 | < Tamber> | No, I've turned that crap off too. |
| 19:33 | < Tamber> | It still keeps happening. (Except when I want to provide an example. -.-) |
| 19:34 | < McMartin> | FWIW, I *did not* turn off Instant. >_> |
| 19:34 | < Tamber> | I did so, because I detest the constant lag as it keeps searching as I type. :p |
| 19:34 | < Vornicus-Latens> | The only time I have trouble finding what I want on google is when there is honestly another thing with the same name that I didn't think of. |
| 19:35 | < Vornicus-Latens> | (or when nobody actually talks about it on the internet, which is wtf) |
| 19:35 | < gnolam> | Good for you. |
| 19:36 | < gnolam> | For the rest of us, you have to expand those homographs into pretty much half a dictionary. Because that's what Google thinks is the same thing. And what you really meant to search for. |
| 19:36 | < gnolam> | And they spend all this energy crapping all over their once great interface, while non-English searches are still completely broken. |
| 19:36 | < McMartin> | See, you say "the rest of us" and I have two examples. |
| 19:36 | < Tamber> | I wonder if they're only pulling this shit on the non-US versions? :p |
| 19:37 | < AnnoDomini> | I've not had problems with Polish searches. |
| 19:37 | < McMartin> | You could try Hamachi-ing over through a US (or Polish) account, I guess |
| 19:37 | < Tamber> | Okay, in that case, it's just tinfoil hat time for me, then. |
| 19:37 | < Tamber> | :) |
| 19:38 | < Tamber> | (And I still haven't managed to get it to happen again, which is rather frustrating.) |
| 19:38 | < McMartin> | Now you're mad that it *works* >_> |
| 19:38 | < AnnoDomini> | He mad. |
| 19:38 | < Tamber> | Well, yes. Because it will stop doing so, when I'm not looking for an example of where it's borken. ;) |
| 19:40 | | * Tamber makes a note to screenscrape it next time it pulls that particular stunt, if only to prove he's not crazy...er than expected. |
| 19:40 | < McMartin> | I don't doubt your word. |
| 19:42 | < gnolam> | McMartin: http://www.google.com/support/websearch/bin/static.py?hl=en&page=guide.cs&guide= 1221265&answer=136861&rd=1 |
| 19:42 | < gnolam> | They call it "synonyms". |
| 19:42 | < gnolam> | I call it "you fucking fail at trying to read my mind". |
| 19:43 | < gnolam> | Also: "A particular word might not appear on a page in your results if there is sufficient other evidence that the page is relevant" |
| 19:43 | < gnolam> | Which, again, falls under the previous statement. |
| 19:43 | < Tamber> | Mmmmh. |
| 19:44 | < McMartin> | That's been true for forever; Google's initial distinguisher is that it paid as much attention to the link structure of the web than the contents of the page. |
| 19:49 | | * McMartin -_- at QA, which has sent him needed data as .rar files |
| 19:49 | < gnolam> | Example: https://encrypted.google.com/search?sclient=psy&hl=en&source=hp&q=ERG+FPOS&btnG= Search <- only results 2, 3 and 7 actually contain the searched-for words (ERG and FPOS) |
| 19:49 | < gnolam> | And that is a good average for present-day Google. |
| 19:50 | < McMartin> | Right, see, my searches tend to look more like "red baron plane" |
| 19:50 | < Tamber> | Mine tend to be things like error messages, which get mangled quite badly. |
| 19:51 | < McMartin> | ... you are quoting exact phrases when you're searching for exact phrases right |
| 19:51 | < Tamber> | Yes. |
| 19:51 | < McMartin> | OK, the page gnolam linked says quoting is supposed to turn off synonyms |
| 19:51 | < McMartin> | You should complain to support when you find an example of it |
| 19:51 | < Tamber> | Hmm. |
| 19:51 | | * ToxicFrog learns about fmemopen(3) |
| 19:51 | < ToxicFrog> | <3 |
| 19:52 | < Tamber> | Now that's handy. |
| 19:52 | < McMartin> | POSIX 2008, eh |
| 19:52 | < McMartin> | And yeah, uh, welcome to Java 1.1 >_> |
| 19:52 | < McMartin> | It is indeed a nice thing to have though, and has been for ages. |
| 19:53 | < Vornicus-Latens> | Ooh. |
| 19:53 | < Tamber> | Java 1.1 without the Java? :p |
| 19:53 | < ToxicFrog> | Knowing that Java has this feature doesn't actually help when I'm using an existing C library with an API that expects FILE*s~ |
| 19:53 | < Tamber> | Indeed. |
| 19:54 | < McMartin> | TF: Right, it's more "really, folks, ByteArrayInputStream shouldn't have taken you until 2008 to get~) |
| 19:54 | < Vornicus-Latens> | I like that. |
| 19:54 | < ToxicFrog> | McMartin: well, it's been in glibc since 1992. |
| 19:54 | < ToxicFrog> | It just wasn't added to POSIX until 2008. |
| 19:54 | < McMartin> | Fair |
| 19:55 | < McMartin> | POSIX should have been more on the ball. =P |
| 19:55 | < ToxicFrog> | Fair |
| 19:55 | < Tamber> | They've not added anything that looks like non-retarded file locking, in the later versions of POSIX, have they? |
| 19:55 | < ToxicFrog> | Anyways, this will help greatly with my current project (a genetic algorithm to evolve Corewars programs) |
| 19:55 | < McMartin> | Note that OSX 10.6 does not support it, despite being gcc-based. >_< |
| 19:56 | < ToxicFrog> | Thankfully this is a course project, not a project for release, and thus I give no shits about portability to non-linux systems~ |
| 19:56 | < McMartin> | \o/ |
| 19:56 | < McMartin> | It's nice that courses have advanced to this |
| 19:57 | < ToxicFrog> | ? |
| 19:57 | < McMartin> | Back when I was a TA, I had enraged students saying I should let them get points for code that didn't run because "they were using standard C++", while I had to patiently explain that if it doesn't run on the lab machine, It's Broken, and we said that upfront. |
| 19:57 | < McMartin> | This was back in the gcc 2.9x days when the STL didn't actually work. |
| 19:57 | < ToxicFrog> | Aah. |
| 19:57 | | * Vornicus-Latens should learn genetic algorithms. |
| 19:58 | < McMartin> | And they were working from home on compilers that supported a *different* subset of the STL than gcc did, etc. |
| 19:58 | < Tamber> | Fun(!) |
| 19:58 | < ToxicFrog> | Here, the policy for undergrad courses is "if it doesn't run on the lab machines, we don't consider it to run; if your home system is incompatible, that's why the lab machines can be accessed remotely using your SOCS login" |
| 19:58 | < McMartin> | Yes, that was the way it worked for us too |
| 19:58 | < McMartin> | However, you assume students pay attention, to which I say lolz. |
| 19:58 | < McMartin> | Thanks to Boost, C++ is almost an acceptable language for general-purpose programming these days, just in time for a new incomprehensible standard to be approved |
| 19:59 | < Tamber> | hehe |
| 19:59 | < ToxicFrog> | Grad courses (and many upper-year undergrad courses) use a more permissive "it has to run on something you can show to the prof" - so "lab machines", "the prof's computer" and "your laptop" are all acceptable targets (but "your home desktop" is not) |
| 19:59 | < Tamber> | Can't have you getting complacent! |
| 19:59 | < McMartin> | Tamber: I have largely given up on portability except when "be a portable system" is an explicit goal. ;_; |
| 20:00 | < Tamber> | McMartin, that's a good idea. For the other way lies Madness. |
| 20:00 | < McMartin> | Despite having written one moderate-sized project in it, that was enough for me to conclude "if you're targeting Windows, use C# for everyone's sanity" |
| 20:00 | < ToxicFrog> | In this case I'm just targeting my laptop, and will demo it to the prof using same. |
| 20:01 | < Tamber> | I try to at least think about getting things to compile on three machines; my laptop, my desktop, and a VM running BSD if I'm entertaining the idea of writing something vaguely useful. :p |
| 20:01 | < McMartin> | TF: Easily done, then, yeah. |
| 20:01 | < McMartin> | Tamber: Ah yes, the "this is portable code, because it runs on Linux *and* BSD" attitude. |
| 20:02 | < McMartin> | We had to purge a lot of UQM protodevs because of that >_> |
| 20:02 | < Tamber> | Yup! |
| 20:02 | < McMartin> | To me "portable" means "Windows, Fedora, Ubuntu, and OS X" |
| 20:02 | | * Tamber notes he does test across arches; not that that's much consolation, but hey. |
| 20:02 | < McMartin> | OSX gets some wiggle room depending. |
| 20:02 | < McMartin> | Yeah, that's where I get lazy~ |
| 20:03 | < Tamber> | I don't have access to OS X, so I can't do it that way myself. :) |
| 20:03 | < McMartin> | Happily, if it runs on BSD and doesn't use X Windows, it runs on any version of OS X, basically. |
| 20:03 | | * Tamber has an sgi box running OpenBSD. If it compiles on the desktop /and/ that, it might just be maybe nearly practical to make it Xplatform. :p |
| 20:04 | < McMartin> | It's when you want to interact with Finder sensibly that life gets hard. |
| 20:04 | < McMartin> | And my attitude there for Linux is "that's the job of the distro maintainers", so, well~ |
| 20:04 | < Tamber> | -chuckle- |
| 20:04 | < Tamber> | The great big seal of "It works on my machine." :) |
| 20:04 | < McMartin> | No, not like that |
| 20:05 | < McMartin> | Stuff like the GNOME metadata so it shows up pretty in the taskbar and App menu and such. |
| 20:05 | < Tamber> | Ahh, right. |
| 20:05 | < Tamber> | "Hey, I added metadata for ${OBSCURE_DE}; not my fault you all use Gnome nowadays!" |
| 20:05 | < McMartin> | Since no distros *agree on how to do this*, we mostly blow it off |
| 20:05 | < Tamber> | *chuckle* |
| 20:05 | < McMartin> | Nah, officially supported Linux launches of UQM involve the commandline. |
| 20:06 | < McMartin> | (strictly speaking, this is also true for Windows, but Windows continuse to have the worst and best install environment so we take control and do the right thing) |
| 20:06 | < McMartin> | Meanwhile, adding expansion packs to the Mac build involves bundle hacking in Terminal.app or three-deep Finder options. |
| 20:08 | < McMartin> | I'm not sure what the "right" thing to do there is - an Applescript App that searches a given directory for expansion packs and then installs them in the bundle for you? *shrug* |
| 20:22 | < McMartin> | Ha ha, re: G+ |
| 20:22 | < McMartin> | "Dante organized people he knew into circles, too." |
| 20:27 | < Vornicus-Latens> | ok. time to remember how to get stuff onto github or whatever |
| 20:29 | | * Vornicus-Latens tries to remember his github login! |
| 20:30 | < Vornicus-Latens> | ...apparently I never had one. |
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| 22:12 | < Vornicus> | Gnar. I don't really /like/ doing drawing via text editor, but all my alternatives suck ass. |
| 22:13 | < gnolam> | ? |
| 22:13 | | * Alek ponders 3D modeling via text editor. |
| 22:14 | < Vornicus> | Alek: done that too. |
| 22:14 | | * Alek nods. |
| 22:14 | < Vornicus> | gnolam: I need to make a lot of stuff and I need to have a lot of consistency between it, and so bending postscript to my will is easier than building a template and then having to manually glom it into every file I'm making. |
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| 22:36 | < gnolam> | I still don't see why you can't use a graphical editor? |
| 22:40 | < Vornicus> | Because the ones I have suck. |
| 22:48 | < Vornicus> | And because the number isn't four or five different arts - I have no less than ten categories of thing that have a lot of similarity within the category, and I don't want to get into a situation where the template has to be manually copied to each one. Using postscript makes it so I put the basics of each category into a file and then that gets imported when I generate the actual graphics. |
| 23:09 | < Vornicus> | Meanwhile, my actual options for graphics tools are pretty thin; it needs to be vector, it needs to do transparency, it needs its gridding options to not blow electric goats. |
| 23:11 | < Vornicus> | Ideally it could do like VIsio does and let me edit the metrics of objects by typing in measurements. |
| 23:14 | < jerith> | Can Visio export to pretty, handcrafted postscript? |
| 23:15 | < McMartin> | By definition it isn't handcrafted, eh what? |
| 23:16 | < Vornicus> | Not that I can see. it's got svg export, apparently, but having seen the horror show that is Illustrator's svg export I'm kind of frightened by the prospect. |
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| 23:19 | < Vornicus> | (Illustrator will take a full path and break it into segments and will lift the pen and hop to an arbitrary segment after each one.) |
| 23:23 | < gnolam> | Visio's SVG is completely broken. |
| 23:23 | < gnolam> | Besides that it still can't get units right, I do like Inkscape thought. But it was some time ago that I last used its gridding features. |
| 23:37 | < gnolam> | s/thought/though |
| --- Log closed Thu Jul 14 00:00:01 2011 |