| --- Log opened Fri Jun 24 00:00:47 2011 |
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| 01:12 | | * kwsn officially hates expect |
| 01:14 | < gnoblargh> | Well, what did you... |
| 01:14 | < kwsn> | ... |
| 01:15 | | * kwsn decapitates gnoblargh |
| 01:22 | < gnoblargh> | That would be an improvement on my day so far. |
| 01:23 | < kwsn> | heh |
| 01:23 | | * kwsn spent all day working on expect |
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| 06:30 | < kw\t-2> | ugh |
| 06:31 | < kw\t-2> | mre work with expect tomorrow >_< |
| 06:31 | | * kw\t-2 debates if ritual suicide will be less painful |
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| 07:28 | | Kindamoody[zZz] is now known as Kindamoody |
| 07:52 | | You're now known as TheWatcher |
| 08:53 | | gnolam [lenin@Nightstar-38637aa0.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #code |
| 08:56 | | * TheWatcher summarises the Programmer's Hate of Documentation in one commit message: "[master 105bb0a] Adding a direct link to documentation in the forlorn hope it'll be read." |
| 08:58 | < gnolam> | :) |
| 09:00 | < jerith> | TheWatcher: I make a point of only writing documentation when someone notices that it isn't there. |
| 09:06 | < TheWatcher> | Alas, I don't really have that option - even if it's not read, making sure it's there at least means staff can't use the "But I didn't know how to use it!" excuse for not doing something. |
| 09:07 | < jerith> | That's one of the advantages of working on backends and infrastructure. |
| 09:07 | < TheWatcher> | Yeah, I bet. |
| 09:07 | < jerith> | (I make a point of writing comprehensive API docs and keeping them up to date, though.) |
| 09:08 | < TheWatcher> | (although, that said, even my backend and infrastructure stuff is documented, partly because of Bus Contingencies, but partly because /I/ use the documentation, if only to help my aging memory ¬¬) |
| 09:09 | < jerith> | Oh, I write the docs I need. |
| 09:09 | < jerith> | But that tends to be in the form of inline comments and docstrings, mostly. |
| 09:10 | | Rikushadow5 [DSD@Nightstar-5a4542a1.res.rr.com] has quit [[NS] Quit: SLEEP] |
| 09:12 | < jerith> | My main objection to documentation is that it becomes stale and therefore misleading. |
| 09:12 | < jerith> | So I try to keep the docs as close to the code as possible. |
| 09:13 | < jerith> | (In the same repo, preferably in the same files.) |
| 09:13 | < jerith> | (This also has the advantage of being able to see the docs for the /current version/ rather than just looking at whatever's on the wiki.) |
| 09:14 | < jerith> | (Where the current version might be the dev branch being integration-tested or whatever.) |
| 09:14 | | * TheWatcher nod |
| 09:15 | < jerith> | At the time I left, there were three projects that had decent docs. Two were mine and one was old and stable and hand't been touched since the guy who wrote it left. |
| 09:16 | < jerith> | (The same went for unit tests, actually. So guess whose code was the most stable?) |
| 09:17 | < TheWatcher> | Oh, I comment the unholy crap out of stuff - my perlstats program is showing this code as 41% comment - but it's hard enough to get staff to read the "nice" (see also: long explanations for the hard of thinking) version of end-user docs in the wiki (which I also maintain, so), let alone telling them to read comments, or even doxygen output |
| 09:18 | < jerith> | Nothing I do is targeting end users, so at least I don't have to worry about that. |
| 09:18 | < Reiver> | Bus Contingencies? |
| 09:19 | | Rhamphoryncus [rhamph@C06FE3.F5723C.BE3FEB.9D4666] has joined #code |
| 09:19 | < TheWatcher> | "What happens if $person gets hit by a bus?" |
| 09:19 | < jerith> | Reiver: When^WIf TW gets hit by a bus, someone has to take over cold. |
| 09:19 | < jerith> | This is why you need a team that does code reviews. |
| 09:19 | < jerith> | So you have more than one person who actually groks the code. |
| 09:20 | < Reiver> | How very thoughtful of TW to care what happens to his poor, longsuffering replacement~ |
| 09:20 | < TheWatcher> | Reiv: perl code |
| 09:20 | < jerith> | (I spent nearly two years trying to explain this, and when I left I was *still* the only person who understood two of the three major codebases I'd built.) |
| 09:20 | < TheWatcher> | The bastard's going to suffer ;) |
| 09:20 | < Reiver> | So why make it any gentler~ |
| 09:21 | < jerith> | Reiver: Because the person who's going to have to maintain that code that hasn't been touched in six months is probably future-TW. |
| 09:21 | < TheWatcher> | (I joke, really. My code is more readable than most of the code I've seen in any language) |
| 09:21 | < TheWatcher> | (Because of 6-month from me now, yes) |
| 09:21 | < jerith> | It's possible to write clean, readable Perl. I've seen it done. It's just /hard/. |
| 09:22 | < TheWatcher> | I've done the "I'm a mighty programmer, I can write code nobody else can read!" shit. I paid for it. |
| 09:22 | < jerith> | I often write dense, impenetrable and complicated code. But I only do so when it's the best way to get the job done, and I always make sure it's self-contained. |
| 09:23 | < jerith> | Anyways, time to head out for my Google interview. Cheerio all. |
| 09:23 | < TheWatcher> | Good luck! |
| 09:24 | | * gnolam smashes a champagne bottle against jerith for good luck. |
| 09:26 | | * jerith refrains from quaffing a preparatory Guinness. |
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| 16:54 | < McMartin[travels]> | Moving swiftly onward... |
| 16:54 | < jerith> | As long as you have an example or two showing the pattern it should be fine. |
| 16:55 | < McMartin[travels]> | https://hkn.eecs.berkeley.edu/~mcmartin/if/private/Character%20Menu%20Framework. i7x |
| 16:57 | < jerith> | Cool. I'll poke at that on the plane tomorrow. |
| 16:57 | < Reiver> | You're flyin? |
| 16:58 | < McMartin[travels]> | It's unlikely anyone else here cares, but in case they do: |
| 16:59 | < McMartin[travels]> | This is a prototype draft of a new conversation-menu system for Inform that's designed to replace the system I already have published, which is reasonably popular but also kind of clunky to use. |
| 16:59 | < McMartin[travels]> | It's optimized now for minimum source code size. |
| 16:59 | < jerith> | Reiver: Home from Dublin. |
| 17:00 | < McMartin[travels]> | "The monkey sidebar is a conversation node. The litany of the monkey sidebar is { ehn-apes, ehn-lemurs }." |
| 17:00 | < jerith> | 8 hours on a plane, a couple of hours in an airport, 8 hours on a plane, an hour in a plane on the ground, 2 hours on a plane, collapse. |
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| 21:24 | | * Derakon mutters at WX for having a dialog for choosing files, and one for choosing folders, but not one that can do both. |
| 21:32 | < Derakon> | Feh. And its choose-folder dialog doesn't let you choose multiple folders either. |
| 21:39 | | Caeldir is now known as Tarinaky |
| 21:41 | < Alek> | so code a new dialog that can do it all. XD |
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| 21:48 | < Derakon> | I could, but I shouldn't have to, and it'd be a lot of effort. |
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| 22:07 | < jerith> | wx was decent about 8 years ago when I last used it. Since then, it hasn't really evolved at all. |
| 22:07 | < Derakon> | Sounds about right. |
| 22:08 | < jerith> | (Of course, I only have anecdotal evidence for this.) |
| 22:08 | < Derakon> | Well, in theory it's just providing access to standard OS GUI widgets, so as long as those don't change it doesn't need to evolve much. |
| 22:20 | < jerith> | But all the major operating systems have changed dramatically in that time. |
| 22:20 | < Derakon> | Not really. |
| 22:21 | < Derakon> | I mean, the widgets look different, but since WX just makes the appropriate system calls instead of making its own imitations, that's all updated automatically. |
| 22:21 | < Derakon> | And basic usage paradigms haven't changed. |
| 22:21 | < Derakon> | Beyond Microsoft's experimentation with ribbons. |
| 22:29 | < Vornicus> | Which isn't itself really that new either -- it reminds me of interfaces for many games. like Dungeon Keeper. |
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| --- Log closed Sat Jun 25 00:00:03 2011 |