| --- Log opened Mon Jun 20 00:00:48 2011 |
| 00:01 | < Namegduf> | XD |
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| 02:48 | | Vornicus-Latens is now known as Vornicus |
| 02:55 | < Vornicus> | 126 down. That wasn't hard at all, why is it the "hardest one" so far? |
| 02:56 | < kw\CUSTARD> | cause you suck? XD |
| 02:56 | < kw\CUSTARD> | wht language? |
| 02:56 | < Vornicus> | No, everybody else sucks. |
| 02:56 | < Vornicus> | Python. |
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| 02:59 | < Vornicus> | I mean literally: the hardest part of 126 was figuring out the formula. |
| 02:59 | < Vornicus> | Which took maybe 20 minutes. |
| 03:01 | < kwsn> | heh |
| 03:02 | < kwsn> | every one but one i've done in python or haskell, the 1 was just me doing it by hand |
| 03:06 | < Vornicus> | now, 127 is properly scary. |
| 03:07 | < Vornicus> | Though I see a metric crapton of pruning that can be done. |
| 03:22 | < Derakon> | Heh. http://it.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=2251220&cid=36493684 |
| 03:22 | < Derakon> | (Poking fun at BitCoin, which has been having a few minor problems lately as hackers have discovered that they can just steal peoples' wallets right off their computers and then trade the coins back to themselves untraceably) |
| 03:26 | | * Vornicus points and laughs. |
| 03:27 | < McMartin> | My word |
| 03:27 | < McMartin> | An anonymous eCash system, useful only for organized crime and with no recourse because anonymity was the goal? |
| 03:27 | < McMartin> | astounding. |
| 03:28 | < Derakon> | I'm working on the assumption that the entire project is, as that post describes, a pump-and-dump. |
| 03:28 | < McMartin> | Hah |
| 03:29 | < McMartin> | See, BitCoin has come up a lot for me |
| 03:29 | < McMartin> | Mostly from people I consider Terribly Wrong About Everything |
| 03:29 | < Derakon> | In particular, because the number of coins it is possible to make is capped, and because the difficulty of making new coins increases exponentially as more are made, inflation is practically guaranteed and those who got in on the ground floor made money for very little. |
| 03:29 | < Derakon> | Er, deflation? Whichever means that the value of an individual coin goes up. |
| 03:29 | < McMartin> | Deflation. |
| 03:29 | < Derakon> | Yeah. |
| 03:30 | < McMartin> | The one that makes it more useful to hide money in your mattress than use it to run your economy. |
| 03:30 | < Derakon> | Anyway, so the creators and their buddies seed the system by making the first 100,000 trivial coins or whatever, then wait for the libertarian geeks to cream their pants, then sell. |
| 03:30 | < Derakon> | Voila, stealing money from morons. |
| 03:30 | < McMartin> | But since my general attitude towards all of these things can be summed up as "dude! Cash is bad. We only barely tolerate it as is." |
| 03:30 | < McMartin> | I don't really get listened to |
| 03:30 | < McMartin> | But still. Dude. Cash is bad. We only barely tolerated it as-is. It's anonymous and unrepudiatable. These are not features. |
| 03:31 | < kwsn> | my mom hates libertarians |
| 03:31 | < McMartin> | Computer geek libertarians are adorable in the restraining order sense. |
| 03:32 | < kwsn> | oh? |
| 03:32 | < McMartin> | (The others being rebellious teenagers or proud sociopaths) |
| 03:32 | < kwsn> | McMartin: my mom is a public employee of the state of WI |
| 03:32 | < kwsn> | she's very justified in that hate |
| 03:33 | < Derakon> | Any theories for why so many computer geeks are libertarians? |
| 03:33 | < McMartin> | "adorable in the restraining order sense" should have made clear that I meant "and by 'adorable' I mean 'need to be chained up away from everyone else') |
| 03:33 | < Derakon> | Just due to a relatively high standard of living? |
| 03:33 | < McMartin> | High standard of living + low social skills + inability to empathize with other human beings = YAY INTERNET |
| 03:33 | < kwsn> | Derakon: cause the gov is restricting their rights to a free internet where everything should be hackable |
| 03:34 | < kwsn> | see lulzsec |
| 03:34 | < McMartin> | Lulzsec is slightly more nuanced. |
| 03:34 | < Derakon> | I don't buy that mostly because actually hacking things involves effort. |
| 03:34 | < McMartin> | Only slightly, but still slightly. |
| 03:34 | < Derakon> | And I don't see most of these guys wanting to invest the energy in anything more than foaming at the mouth. |
| 03:34 | < McMartin> | They at least pretend to be disappointed that their targets are so pathetically easy to destroy. |
| 03:35 | < kwsn> | omg you brought down the cia website |
| 03:35 | < kwsn> | wow |
| 03:35 | < kwsn> | congrats |
| 03:35 | < kwsn> | it's website |
| 03:35 | < kwsn> | i doubt the cia plans for a ddos on their website, i mean |
| 03:35 | < McMartin> | Weren't they behind the PSN attacks? |
| 03:35 | < kwsn> | why would it matter too them |
| 03:35 | < kwsn> | *t |
| 03:35 | < kwsn> | *to |
| 03:35 | < McMartin> | Anyway |
| 03:36 | < McMartin> | http://xkcd.com/538/ is the half of the easy reaction to the kind of people who pump BitCoin as a decent idea |
| 03:36 | < McMartin> | The other half is, I seem to recall, from some other xkcd strip but I can't find it |
| 03:36 | < kwsn> | seriously, 99% of lulzsec is probably script kiddies |
| 03:37 | < McMartin> | Yes, pulling ages-old basic shit like SQL injection |
| 03:37 | < McMartin> | And it's working |
| 03:37 | < McMartin> | Which is pathetic. |
| 03:37 | < kwsn> | yes, but how often do people hve to worry about it |
| 03:37 | < McMartin> | I'm of two minds of that |
| 03:38 | < McMartin> | On the first hand, it's bad form to walk down the street trying every door you see to check if they're locked. |
| 03:38 | <@ToxicFrog> | kwsn: "never, until someone actually tries it" |
| 03:38 | < McMartin> | On the other, you should fucking have locks on your doors. |
| 03:38 | < McMartin> | Also also, if you're vulnerable to SQL injection, as a rule you will make a lot of Irish people very sad. |
| 03:39 | < kwsn> | oh? |
| 03:39 | < McMartin> | "I put in my name and I got an internal database error!" "I don't see why that would happen, Mr. O'Connor. Maybe you should try again later.") |
| 03:40 | | * Derakon facepalms. |
| 03:41 | < McMartin> | The existence of a SQL Injection vulnerability means that you're taking input from a user's web form and running it as code. |
| 03:41 | | * kwsn throws bobby tables at McMartin |
| 03:41 | < McMartin> | There is under no circumstance any reason to ever do this, and if you think there is, you've designed your system wrong. |
| 03:41 | < McMartin> | I'm fairly adamant about this, to the point that the "you should have locks on your doors" thing is actually kind of inapt |
| 03:41 | < McMartin> | It's more "you should not leave your valuables sitting around on your front lawn." |
| 03:42 | < McMartin> | Or, to be fair, "when you are offering 'we look after your valuables' as a service, this 'look after' should not include leaving them sitting around on your front lawn and checking in on them twice a week" |
| 03:42 | < Vornicus> | I can think of exactly one situation in which taking webform data and running it as code is the right idea: when you're building a page where you paste in js and see what it does. |
| 03:42 | < McMartin> | Well |
| 03:43 | < McMartin> | There you're running it client side |
| 03:43 | < McMartin> | So yeah, modify the above to "running it as code *on your servers*" |
| 03:43 | < Vornicus> | Well, okay, more generally: Interactive Interpreters, and then you have to be Damn Careful with what you let them get to in any case. |
| 03:44 | < McMartin> | XSS attacks are equally fantastically exploitative but they involve owning the client and are more like malware than security attacks. |
| 03:53 | <@ToxicFrog> | In this day and age, being vulnerable to SQL injection attacks basically says "we care so little that we hired a high school student for $10/h to make our website in PHP". |
| 03:54 | < McMartin> | And even then the high school student would have a better than average job of getting it right -_- |
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| 03:54 | < McMartin> | *chance |
| 03:55 | <@ToxicFrog> | Not in PHP they wouldn't~ |
| 04:02 | < gnolam> | You know what the best thing about the Mt. Gox hack is? |
| 04:03 | < gnolam> | They used MD5. |
| 04:03 | < McMartin> | For what? |
| 04:03 | < gnolam> | For the passwords. |
| 04:03 | < McMartin> | As in, your password was the MD5sum of your account name? |
| 04:04 | < McMartin> | Or that they used md5 to try to obfuscate the passwords?] |
| 04:04 | < kwsn> | probbly the latter |
| 04:04 | < gnolam> | As in, their database that got leaked used MD5 password hashes instead of an actually secure hash. |
| 04:04 | < McMartin> | I was unaware that MD5 was in any way useful on strings less than a kilobyte. |
| 04:04 | < gnolam> | That's pretty lax by any standards. |
| 04:05 | < McMartin> | When was MD5 broken? |
| 04:05 | < McMartin> | I know MD4 was three or four years ago, but |
| 04:05 | < Vornicus> | Far as I'm aware we've had rainbow tables for md5 for at least a decade. |
| 04:05 | < gnolam> | Now, consider their customers: people with computers /specifically built/ to break hashes. :) |
| 04:06 | < McMartin> | Vorn: Well, OK, but rainbow tables will break anything. |
| 04:06 | <@ToxicFrog> | McMartin: IME, it is not uncommon for people with just enough knowledge of security to be dangerous to choose MD5 as a password hash because it is the hashing algorithm they are most familiar with. |
| 04:06 | < kwsn> | McMartin: too FABULOUS for it? |
| 04:06 | < Vornicus> | MD5 hasn't as far as I'm aware been broken in the sense that you can bingo arbitrary things, so long as you include lengths. |
| 04:06 | < gnolam> | MD5 has been considered broken for /years/. |
| 04:06 | < McMartin> | gnolam: Right, and this is a version of "broken" that I'm trying to nail down here. |
| 04:06 | < McMartin> | MD4 you *can* bingo for arbitrary things to the point where it's practically "invertible" |
| 04:07 | < Vornicus> | On the other hand you don't want to touch it for crypto because anything short is going to be in the relatively-easily-generated tables. |
| 04:07 | < McMartin> | I fail to see why that wouldn't also be true for SHA1 or, indeed, any published hashing function one would care to name. |
| 04:08 | < gnolam> | It still takes a bit of computing power, but you can pretty much generate any data you want for MD5 and have it collide. |
| 04:08 | < gnolam> | http://www.kb.cert.org/vuls/id/836068 |
| 04:12 | < McMartin> | Hmm |
| 04:12 | < McMartin> | Won't salting the password defeat that? |
| 04:12 | < McMartin> | You don't get total control over what's going in, after all. |
| 04:13 | < McMartin> | (This does, I guess, mean that MD5 won't stop a man-in-the-middle attack, since MD5 is normally used to verify downloads) |
| 04:16 | | * McMartin looks up some terminology |
| 04:16 | < McMartin> | I guess what I'm missing here is that it seems to me that if you're hashing passwords sensibly (that is, using salt, a technique that's been around for longer than I've been alive), you need to mount an actual preimage attack on the hash, not merely a collision attack. |
| 04:17 | < Vornicus> | You need to figure out what the preimage would have been. |
| 04:17 | < McMartin> | Er, right, sorry |
| 04:17 | < McMartin> | Without salt, you need a Second Preimage Attack, which is easier. |
| 04:18 | < McMartin> | Because you can bingo *anything* and it will accept it. |
| 04:18 | < McMartin> | When salted, it gets to pick the first N bytes of the message. |
| 04:18 | < Vornicus> | Or rather: since the hash must be /rebuilt/ before transmission and comparison... |
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| 04:19 | < McMartin> | In short: I need more information before I'm willing to actually say that doing this is a vulnerability as opposed to merely Probably A Bad Idea. |
| 04:19 | <@ToxicFrog> | McMartin: as a rule, the people using MD5 as a password hash lack the background needed to realize that salting is a good idea. |
| 04:19 | < Vornicus> | But your best bet I guess is the way I've often seen it done: you toss a random code at the client, have him salt that in, and the code expires after a minute or two. |
| 04:22 | < Vornicus> | But this req... no, it doesn't. Hash password alone, salt, rehash, send tha--- but then someone who gets the hashes can just do the rehash step and get in. |
| 04:22 | < Vornicus> | Man I don't know. |
| 04:22 | < Vornicus> | Cleartext passwords serverside are clearly Bad but I can't figure out how to avoid them or their equivalent. |
| 04:23 | < McMartin> | The MD5 attacks appear to be on CAs and certificate spoofing, and AFAICT we have no acceptable algorithms for that at present; SHA1 is vulnerable to the same attack as MD5, and SHA2 doesn't have a demonstrated result but it's algorithmically close enough that it apparently Ought To. |
| 04:24 | < kwsn> | hm |
| 04:24 | <@ToxicFrog> | Vornicus: AIUI, for *authentication*, the way it typically works is (a) client sends password to server over SSL; (b) server does user -> salt lookup, hashes password with salt, compares result to hash in database |
| 04:25 | < Vornicus> | So password is "cleartext" over a secured line. |
| 04:25 | < Vornicus> | Got it. |
| 04:25 | <@ToxicFrog> | For storage, you salt the password, hash it, and store the salt and hash. |
| 04:26 | <@ToxicFrog> | That said, I'm not a cryptographer or security expert |
| 04:27 | < McMartin> | From wiki, a questionable source, but matching our preconceptions here: |
| 04:27 | < McMartin> | "Some of the applications that use cryptographic hashes, such as password storage, are only minimally affected by a collision attack. Constructing a password that works for a given account requires a preimage attack, as well as access to the hash of the original password (typically in the shadow file) which may or may not be trivial. Reversing password encryption (e.g., to obtain a password to try against a user's account elsewhere) |
| 04:28 | <@ToxicFrog> | "elsewhere)" |
| 04:29 | < McMartin> | "is not made possible by the attacks. However, even a secure password hash cannot prevent brute-force attacks on weak passwords." |
| 04:29 | < McMartin> | Essentially, if passwords are unsalted, it doesn't matter *how* good your hash function is, you are screwed if they get your password file. |
| 04:30 | < McMartin> | Because you can throw a dictionary at anything, basically. |
| 04:31 | <@ToxicFrog> | AIUI, even if it's salted, it's vulnerable to a dictionary attack unless the hash function is extremely expensive; the salt is there to protect against rainbow tables and similar precomputation attacks. |
| 04:32 | < McMartin> | Well, OK, offline dictionary attacks |
| 04:32 | < McMartin> | (This is assuming you got passwd but not the salt mapping) |
| 04:32 | <@ToxicFrog> | (often the salt is stored alongside the hash, or even pre/appended to it, so...) |
| 04:33 | < McMartin> | If the salt is there in the file, or computed in a way you can replicate, then yeah, you're basically screwed regardless of hash strength; all you're doing is delaying the inevitable a little if you have a userbase of any size |
| 04:34 | < Vornicus> | Which is why short salts are generally enough; you need to get past precompute but beyond that you're stuff. |
| 04:34 | < Vornicus> | stuck* |
| 04:36 | < Vornicus> | This then becomes "why do we haveto change our passwords every so often" |
| 04:37 | < Vornicus> | But then xkcd 539 comes up again and there you go. |
| 04:37 | < Vornicus> | 538 rather. |
| 04:38 | < McMartin> | s/passwords/Social Security, bank account, and credit card numbers/ |
| 04:38 | < McMartin> | And therein lies the rub for eCommerce raids. |
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| 13:33 | | * gnolam arghls, as his brain slowly oozes out of his ears. |
| 13:33 | < gnolam> | So, I already knew that physicists shouldn't be allowed to code. |
| 13:34 | < gnolam> | But I didn't know that they shouldn't be allowed to write documentation either. |
| 13:35 | < gnolam> | See, in a reference manual, if I look up the command "FOO", I expect to see something like |
| 13:35 | < gnolam> | FOO |
| 13:35 | < gnolam> | Specifies bar and baz for doing frotz. |
| 13:35 | < gnolam> | BAR: the bariness (default 0) |
| 13:35 | < gnolam> | BAZ: the baziness (default 1) |
| 13:35 | < gnolam> | [long explanation] |
| 13:35 | < gnolam> | [examples] |
| 13:35 | < gnolam> | But noo. |
| 13:36 | < gnolam> | Here it's |
| 13:36 | < gnolam> | FOO |
| 13:36 | < gnolam> | [wall of text] |
| 13:36 | < gnolam> | (looking like an example) BAR |
| 13:36 | < gnolam> | [wall of text] |
| 13:36 | < gnolam> | (hidden away in the middle of the text) BAZ |
| 13:36 | < gnolam> | [wall of text] |
| 13:43 | < gnolam> | And all the obscure constraints you have to abide by? They only put them next to whatever they apply to if you're /extremely/ lucky. |
| 13:43 | < gnolam> | And forget about a "here's all the weird shit you have to keep in mind" section. |
| 13:46 | < gnolam> | And those walls of text? |
| 13:47 | < gnolam> | They're pretty much just prolix. Not especially detailed. |
| 13:48 | < gnolam> | But hey, who needs details, or explanations. It's not like this is nuclear physics or anything. |
| 13:48 | < gnolam> | OH WAIT |
| 13:50 | < TheWatcher> | Well, you're supposed to know it all before going near that, right?~ |
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| 14:12 | < gnolam> | ... and /balls/. |
| 14:15 | < gnolam> | I can't just take the user's source definitions, snag the associated emission data and shove it into the input file. I actually have to calculate the secular equlibria myself. :P |
| 14:19 | < gnolam> | I thought it was a bit strange that I didn't get any appreciable gamma from Cs-137 :P |
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| 17:14 | <@ToxicFrog> | This is bizarre. |
| 17:14 | <@ToxicFrog> | The vstruct test suite runs fine in normal lua. |
| 17:14 | <@ToxicFrog> | In luaJIT, whichever floating-point test suite runs second fails (as though every input were & 0xFF). |
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| 17:39 | < gnolam> | (0.0, 0.0, -3.0001) is within the cell, dammit. How can you complain that the sampling efficiency is too low? >:E |
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| 17:44 | <@ToxicFrog> | Hey, it's a bug in the JIT! |
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| 18:21 | < gnolam> | NGFHRHGGHrl |
| 18:22 | < gnolam> | You know that thing about the obscure constraints? |
| 18:22 | < gnolam> | What's even worse are the /undocumented/ constraints. |
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| 19:12 | | Stalker [Z@26ECB6.A4B64C.298B52.D80DA0] has quit [Ping timeout: 121 seconds] |
| 19:18 | < gnolam> | And the documentation is so crap that I have no way of knowing if my workaround is legal. |
| 19:35 | | You're now known as TheWatcher[afk] |
| 19:43 | | * ToxicFrog files a but report against the luaJIT compiler |
| 19:49 | | Kindamoody|out is now known as Kindamoody |
| 19:49 | | Thaqui [Thaqui@27B34E.D54D49.F53FA1.6A113C] has quit [Client closed the connection] |
| 19:51 | | * jerith files an if report. |
| 19:57 | | Reiver [orthianz@9C034E.E649EA.3194C7.8381A3] has quit [Client closed the connection] |
| 19:57 | | Reiver [orthianz@9C034E.E649EA.3194C7.8381A3] has joined #code |
| 19:59 | | * Vornicus greets jerith. |
| 19:59 | < jerith> | o/ |
| 20:03 | <@ToxicFrog> | ...a bug report, too. |
| 20:09 | | * Vornicus pokes at 127. It's time for PRUNES |
| 20:14 | < Vornicus> | Actually to be frank I'm not sure how much more pruning I can do! |
| 20:31 | < jerith> | I keep finding unexpected limitations in I7. :-/ |
| 20:31 | < jerith> | Well, not always limitations. Sometimes just ways of doing things that don't mesh with what I'm trying to do. |
| 20:32 | < jerith> | I decided to build a magic box during my two hour flight. |
| 20:33 | < jerith> | The idea is that it has different stuff in it depending on what key you use to open it. |
| 20:33 | < jerith> | My first few attempts hit the "too bloody verbose" wall. |
| 20:34 | < jerith> | Well, I didn't actually /attempt/ them. I threw them out before implementing as "I have to include three sentences of boilerplate for each thing". |
| 20:34 | < jerith> | Then I discovered that you can't create two objects at a time from a table. |
| 20:37 | < jerith> | Now I've run into "a lock and a key are a pair, so you can't easily have multiple keys unlocking a single thing". |
| 20:39 | | * Vornicus fiddles, tries a different pruning track. |
| 20:50 | < Vornicus> | gnarg! |
| 21:21 | < ErikMesoy> | I just learned this word and realized that I am guilty of having done it several times. http://blog.mezeske.com/?p=427 |
| 21:22 | < McMartin> | It is in some cases standard practice. |
| 21:22 | < McMartin> | If you're passing doubles to OpenGL, you are fundamentally doing it wrong. |
| 21:26 | | You're now known as TheWatcher |
| 21:28 | < Vornicus> | sloptimization is very often a good idea, actually. |
| 21:29 | < Vornicus> | WHen doing searches, a fast rough estimate without false negatives helps a whole lot. |
| 21:30 | < Vornicus> | WHen doing display, off by less than your resolution hurts pretty much nobody. |
| 21:32 | < Vornicus> | And it is kind of thw whole point behind lossy compression. |
| 21:43 | < Vornicus> | There. Beautiful. 127 down. |
| 22:01 | | Rhamphoryncus [rhamph@C06FE3.F5723C.BE3FEB.9D4666] has joined #code |
| 22:11 | <@ToxicFrog> | \o/ bug fixed |
| 22:11 | < Vornicus> | \o/ |
| 22:11 | < Vornicus> | What was the bug? |
| 22:11 | | ErikMesoy [Erik_Mesoy@Nightstar-f7eedefa.80-203-17.nextgentel.com] has left #code [] |
| 22:13 | | celticminstrel is now known as celmin|away |
| 23:00 | <@ToxicFrog> | Vornicus: something involving deep compiler wizardry that I don't understand. |
| 23:01 | <@ToxicFrog> | The commit message for the fix is "Fix recording of loops with instable directions in side traces." |
| 23:02 | <@ToxicFrog> | (the manifestation of the bug was that a certain loop would terminate early, or in some cases, a loop local variable would cease to exist entirely) |
| 23:26 | | Rhamphoryncus [rhamph@C06FE3.F5723C.BE3FEB.9D4666] has quit [Client exited] |
| 23:47 | | shade_of_cpux is now known as cpux |
| 23:54 | | Serah [Z@26ECB6.A4B64C.298B52.D80DA0] has quit [[NS] Quit: If the world didn't suck, we'd all fall off.] |
| 23:57 | | You're now known as TheWatcher[T-2] |
| 23:59 | | You're now known as TheWatcher[zZzZ] |
| --- Log closed Tue Jun 21 00:00:03 2011 |