code logs -> 2011 -> Tue, 08 Mar 2011< code.20110307.log - code.20110309.log >
--- Log opened Tue Mar 08 00:00:50 2011
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01:18
<@Vornicus-Latens>
HOORAY PEEK
01:18
<@Vornicus-Latens>
reminds me, I never quite figured out why poke was a command but peek was a function.
01:19 Vornicus-Latens is now known as Vornicus
01:21
< ToxicFrog>
Because poke modifies state but has no return value, whereas peek returns a value but lacks side effects.
01:22
< ToxicFrog>
You don't see it much these days, but some languages distinguish between "procedure" (does not return anything) and "function" (does).
01:23
<@Vornicus>
oh right.
01:24
<@Vornicus>
only language I can think of that does that that's in relatively common use is PL/SQL
01:24
<@Vornicus>
Which is a shrieking horror.
01:27
<@McMartin>
Um
01:27
<@McMartin>
Python
01:27
<@McMartin>
At least up to 2.x
01:27
<@McMartin>
print, try, etc. are statements
01:28
<@Vornicus>
well, okay. print. try is a compound and only counts if you think if does.
01:32
< celticminstrel>
Pascal.
01:33
<@Vornicus>
It occurs to me that I am actually unaware of any program that is made in Pascal and notes this fact.
01:34
< celticminstrel>
The only one I can think of is a fairly old Mac game, to be fair.
01:34 * Vornicus is a person who plays Fairly Old Mac Games.
01:34
< celticminstrel>
It was called Goldpusher.
01:35
<@Vornicus>
That one I never heard of.
01:35
< celticminstrel>
The author ended up releasing the source code, though not under an open source license.
01:36
<@McMartin>
Tyrian was written in Pascal.
01:36
< celticminstrel>
But it relies on Symantec GUI libraries or something, so I couldn't do much with it. :(
01:36
<@McMartin>
This was noted once he provided the source to the OpenTyrian folks.
01:36
<@Vornicus>
...let me guess, the OpenTyrian folks were writing in C?
01:36
< celticminstrel>
I imagine a lot of old Mac programs were written in Pascal.
01:36
<@McMartin>
s/were/are/
01:37
<@McMartin>
And yeah, they translated it to C.
01:37
<@Vornicus>
celmin: that is probably true... I remember that I had a pascal thingy on my old mac.
01:37
< ToxicFrog>
XVI32 is written in Delphi, which IIRC is a commercial Pascal variant
01:37
<@McMartin>
Yes
01:37
<@Vornicus>
I couldn't figure out how to get it to do either procedures /or/ functions. But I was 12.
01:38
<@McMartin>
C# is in many was a spiritual successor to Delphi, actually
01:38
<@McMartin>
*ways
01:38
< celticminstrel>
I might have been "programming" at 12. In Logo, most likely.
01:38
<@Vornicus>
I was pretty good in BASIC.
01:38
<@McMartin>
I was definitely hacking GW-BASIC by then.
01:38
<@Vornicus>
well, c64/apple basic.
01:38
< celticminstrel>
Possibly HyperTalk.
01:38
<@McMartin>
Starting to pick up assembler, which I had to hand-assemble and poke into my C64's memory by hand.
01:39 * McMartin also had access to an AT.
01:39
<@Vornicus>
Man, hypercard.
01:39
<@Vornicus>
That was some good stuff.
01:40
< ToxicFrog>
Hmm. 12. I was dabbling in C and Java at that point, I think, but not really understanding it.
01:40 * ToxicFrog checks the Crossfire changelog
01:40
< celticminstrel>
I wish it were still around. None of the clones I've noticed are quite the same.
01:41
<@McMartin>
When I was 12, Ultima VI was about to come out. -_-
01:41
<@McMartin>
I wouldn't actually encounter it for another three years.
01:42
< ToxicFrog>
Hmm. Crossfire 0.94.3 came out in 1998. I would have been 13 then, and that's when I started getting seriously into C - I wanted to modify it.
01:42
< ToxicFrog>
So at 12, I would have been working on net3d vehicle definitions, which are written in bastardized C, but not really understanding it as C.
01:43
<@McMartin>
I think I might have had access to K&R1 at 12. ANSI C was brand new and nothing truly supported it yet.
01:43
<@McMartin>
Man, I'm old.
01:43
<@McMartin>
Turbo Pascal 7 was the new hotness for instructional teaching then, and it was advanced enough to be a better language for OO development than C++ was at the time.
01:43 * McMartin says this looking back with older eyes.
01:43
< ToxicFrog>
Not sure when I started dabbling in Java.
01:43
<@McMartin>
I started Java in late '96.
01:44
< ToxicFrog>
It was around the time of one of the releases of MKS Web Integrity, but I don't remember which one.
01:44
<@McMartin>
Wrote an Applet to implement a PARANOIA-themed version of Daleks.
01:44
< ToxicFrog>
(it's the one where if you triple-click on the logo you get a fancy credit roll, and I know this because I helped implement it. I've got one of the original master discs on my bookshelf.)
01:44
< ToxicFrog>
(looking back on that, goddamn, it would have been so much faster with ImageMagick)
01:45
< celticminstrel>
MKS?
01:45
< ToxicFrog>
Mortice Kern Systems. A Waterloo-based developer of development tools.
01:45
< celticminstrel>
I thought it sounded familiar. I think I sort-of know one of the guys who founded that.
01:45
< ToxicFrog>
My dad worked there for a while before management was taken over by brainslugs and he fled - along with most of the other competent people - to CacheFlow.
01:46 * Vornicus didn't start Actually Learning To Program until november 2001.
01:46 * Vornicus learned from Chalain.
01:46
< ToxicFrog>
I know I was using LOGO in the early 90s, but I don't think I really realized I was programming until I started on QBASIC.
01:47
< ToxicFrog>
I do remember that I understood basic OO concepts and was fluent in Turing 4 by 2002, because that's what I did one of my final projects in.
01:48
<@McMartin>
Hm
01:48
<@McMartin>
I can't tell what if anything happened to the startup that was my first job out of high school
01:48
< ToxicFrog>
I started on C earlier - 1998 - but it took me longer to really become comfortable in it; early 2003 is when it started to click for me.
01:48
<@McMartin>
I did prototype work for them in Common Lisp, then turned that into an ActiveX control, which involved hand-hacking fixes into MSVC++'s runtime libraries.
01:48
< ToxicFrog>
(whereas I was introduced to Turing in 2001. And some of my code from that era was awful)
01:49
<@McMartin>
Since this was 1996 and there were no functioning implementations of C++ yet.
01:49
< ToxicFrog>
(I wrote a Dome Wars clone in a single 750-line file of procedural code)
01:49 * Vornicus started in Python.
01:49
<@Vornicus>
though technically I'd done some (not very interesting) stuff in c64 basic, and one (completely ridiculous) thing in pascal.
01:50
< celticminstrel>
Turing is a flavour of Pascal, isn't it?
01:51
< ToxicFrog>
Mine was something like Logo - QBASIC - Pascal - C - Java - C++ - more C - Turing 3 - Turing 4 - Postscript - Perl - Lua - Python - Scheme - Haskell - Scala
01:51
< ToxicFrog>
And bash somewhere in there. Or everywhere.
01:52
< ToxicFrog>
celticminstrel: kind of, yeah. It's more newbie-friendly and has a simple but useful IDE.
01:52
< celticminstrel>
I'd probably go Logo-HyperTalk-C++-Python, though I think there should be a few more in there.
01:52
< ToxicFrog>
Also builtin stuff for graphics, sound, control - the SDL feature set, basically.
01:52
<@McMartin>
I can't even trace it anymore, especially if you count "interacted with a REPL in some form"
01:52
< celticminstrel>
Actually I was dabbling a little in C around the same time as I was learning C++, either just before or just after.
01:52
<@Derakon>
Lessee...I did some pointless C64 BASIC stuff, then poked at the Angband source code (C) and made a few changes that never made it into mainline, then Java, C++, and school.
01:52
<@McMartin>
Like, if we count playing with turtle graphics as "working in LOGO", then the first system I ever used was Prolog.
01:52
< ToxicFrog>
Sadly, its networking looks like TCP but doesn't actually guarantee delivery, although that may have been the awful high school network
01:52
< ToxicFrog>
So our plans of a networked N-player game fell through, and we had to do a two-player shared-keyboard deal.
01:53
< ToxicFrog>
On the plus side, it was a kickass game, and since one of the team members was in visual arts with a focus on 3d renders, it had fantastic graphics.
01:53
<@Vornicus>
basic - (logo) - (pascal) - python - c/c++ - java - whole bunch of shit I don't remember - bash - ruby - postscript - javascript
01:53
< celticminstrel>
I recall someone (or perhaps two people) making a primitive instant messaging program as their high school final project.
01:53
< ToxicFrog>
Oh yeah, I picked up javascript at some point.
01:53
< celticminstrel>
That was the year below me.
01:53
<@McMartin>
Probably the capstone of my juvenile projects was a game written in C with memory-mapped MCGA graphics and a toolset we built from scratch back in '94.
01:54
< ToxicFrog>
I also learned ActionScript, but have successfully forgotten all of it.
01:54 * Vornicus appears to be the "newest" programmer here.
01:54
< ToxicFrog>
I really should rewrite tSpaceWar in something that runs on modern systems one of these days.
01:54
< ToxicFrog>
It wasn't new, but it was cool.
01:55
< ToxicFrog>
(specifically, it was a Spacewar clone with better graphics, eight weapons, and customizeable game parameters)
01:55
< ToxicFrog>
(including things like "gravity polarity")
01:56
< ToxicFrog>
"What are you doing?" "Testing our final project, Mr. Wagner." "Aah. Carry on."
01:56
< ToxicFrog>
"Start everyone with xaser missiles this time?"
01:57
<@McMartin>
Hm. I don't seem to have that shooter online anymore.
01:57
< ToxicFrog>
Mr. Wagner was, it must be said, completely awesome.
01:57
<@McMartin>
Anyway, I used that old project, translated it to SDL in a mad weekend, and then used it as my CV when Star Control 2 was getting opened up
01:57
<@McMartin>
It appears to have worked.
01:57
<@McMartin>
Speaking of which, I need to get aroudn to making the official mac build again.
01:58
< ToxicFrog>
A physics teacher by trade, he was tapped to teach TEI OA1 (the "IT course") and, later, Programming II, when the previous programming teacher retired (or, possibly, was locked in a beehive by disgruntled students - he was an asshole and, apart from that, an awful teacher)
01:58
< celticminstrel>
My high school project was a "maze" game with ASCII graphics.
01:58
< ToxicFrog>
He grabbed the text and stayed a week ahead all semester.
01:58
< celticminstrel>
Which I have been occasionally attempting to port to curses.
01:59
< celticminstrel>
Or ncurses, whatever.
01:59
< ToxicFrog>
And his approach to classroom discipline was that the better the class was doing, the laxer he was.
01:59
< ToxicFrog>
Everyone's getting 90s? Sure, you can use that spare computer as a Quake server. Just keep the volume turned down.
02:01
< ToxicFrog>
Hm.
02:01
< ToxicFrog>
Maybe after I finish Felt, I should port tSpaceWar to love2d.
02:01
< ToxicFrog>
I may even be able to use box2d, if it supports gravitational point-sources.
02:02
<@McMartin>
My APCS final project was an IF engine and language.
02:03
<@McMartin>
It was pretty terrible, but it was good enough that translating it to Inform 6 was a worthy project.
02:03
<@McMartin>
Which will never, ever be released.
02:03
< ToxicFrog>
Heh.
02:03
< ToxicFrog>
Yeah, I've got more than a few projects in my past that will never see release.
02:03
< ToxicFrog>
Including at least three iterations of ss1edit.
02:06 * McMartin ponders
02:06
<@McMartin>
I wonder if the heroic age of computing really is 8
02:06 * Vornicus is still vaguely proud of his I7 thing.
02:06
<@McMartin>
Or if it stopped at some point, but a point after where I grew old and jaded
02:08
< ToxicFrog>
?
02:09
<@McMartin>
There was an age when games were made by towering giants
02:09
<@McMartin>
At some point this basically stopped
02:10
<@McMartin>
I look at my heroes and they're all of the early-to-mid 80s.
02:10
<@McMartin>
But then I look at *yours* and go "yeah, OK"
02:10
<@McMartin>
Though even then the shift to studios is starting
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02:16
< SchoolPhox>
Hmm. So, does anyone have experience with ARM micros? I'm trying to optimize interrupt handling, but I don't quite understand the vector table concept.
02:17
<@McMartin>
Ugh. Not at that level, sorry.
02:17
<@Vornicus>
I at one point started writing "disARM", but I don't know anything about interrupt handling at all.
02:17
< ToxicFrog>
I have no experience with ARM, but do have experience with IVTs on the Motorola architecture
02:17
<@McMartin>
I'd have to refresh my knowledge on the basics of interrupt handling beyond the basics "some defined point has a list of jump points for handling interrupts"...
02:17
< ToxicFrog>
However, I'm also going AFK for perhaps half an hour shortly.
02:20
< SchoolPhox>
Ah, nevermind. I think I worked out what I was trying to figure out. Kind of a lousy example and table they used in this book.
02:21
< SchoolPhox>
Mostly, I was confused by the concept of a jump to a jump point.
02:21
<@McMartin>
Ah. I've done that when doing NES hacking. :D
02:28
< SchoolPhox>
See, what I don't understand here is the correct order of events. The processor jumps to the interrupt vector. From there, it loads the address of the interrupt handler. Now, do I have the code to determine the cause of the interrupt in the handler, and then branch to a service routine?
02:30
<@McMartin>
This is where hardware spiders start to come in.
02:30
<@Vornicus>
hardware is full of spiders ;_;
02:30
<@McMartin>
(MIPS is hilarious here, as it abuses instruction pipelining to force an atomicity that otherwise 'shouldn't be there')
02:31
< SchoolPhox>
MIPS?
02:33
<@McMartin>
Another architecture, and the one I studied back in uni.
02:33
<@McMartin>
Among many other things, the PS1 and PS2 used it.
02:37
< ToxicFrog>
SchoolPhox: in general, the processor does not jump to the IVT - it just loads the address of the interrupt handler from it, then jumps to that
02:37
< ToxicFrog>
Also - does ARM actually have a seperate "interrupt handler" and "interrupt service routine"? I usually see those used interchangeably.
02:38
< SchoolPhox>
Dunno. I've got a kind of crazy teacher. One of the best in Canada, I'm told, but he has some strange methods of doing things. This could be one of those things.
02:39
< SchoolPhox>
Or it could just be a matter of syntax
02:40
< SchoolPhox>
Basically, the interrupt handler, designed his way, is like a switch-case. One of X cases occur, each of which branches to it's own service routine.
02:40
< SchoolPhox>
*its
02:40
< SchoolPhox>
Is that similar to your experiences?
02:41
< ToxicFrog>
No, but I can see cases where you'd write an ISR like that - what sort of cases is it distinguishing?
02:43
< celticminstrel>
Eh, NES. I once entertained the strange idea of writing something for that platform. <_<
02:43
< SchoolPhox>
The example he used is a parallel I/O. There's 32 pins in each PIO module, each of which can be configured to cause an interrupt. They're all OR'd together, though, going to the interrupt controller. So, I guess the interrupt handler routine would be used to determine which pin caused the interrupt.
02:46
<@McMartin>
celticminstrel: tbqh the best retro platform from that era is probably the C64, even though it's a touch weaker than the NES.
02:47
< celticminstrel>
Doesn't NES have better graphics? I can't remember the C64 games I tried on an emulator...
02:47
< SchoolPhox>
I thought the C64 was vector graphics
02:47
< ToxicFrog>
SchoolPhox: yeah, it sounds like in this case they all generate one interrupt, so the ISR then needs to check and see which one actually went hot
02:48
<@McMartin>
celticminstrel: Basically, yeah. C64 has much worse color support, but slightly better resolution and true bitmap.
02:49
<@McMartin>
The NES has actual panning hardware and multiplane tiled graphics, and much more flexible sprites.
02:49
<@McMartin>
But the C64 is much less of a PITA to program, and if you're serious about making a project, you should be using something more modern in a retro aesthetic *anyway*.
02:51
< celticminstrel>
Hehe, probably.
02:54
<@McMartin>
I've done some of each: https://hkn.eecs.berkeley.edu/~mcmartin/retro/
02:57
<@McMartin>
I should probably migrate Ophis onto SF or github or something.
02:58
<@Vornicus>
Clearly you should instead target the TurboGrafx16 instead.
02:58
<@Vornicus>
(I have no idea what the turbografx16 had)
02:59
<@McMartin>
(I think it was the 16-bit extension 65816, like the SNES and Apple ][gs)
02:59
<@Vornicus>
(but I know the Genesis had shitty graphics and an awesome proc, and the SNES had aweseom graphics and a shitty proc.)
02:59
<@McMartin>
(TG16 had a Hudson Soft HuC6280 o_O)
03:00
<@McMartin>
(SNES = Apple ][gs, Genesis = Amiga)
03:00
<@McMartin>
(Genesis also = early Mac)
03:00
<@Vornicus>
(I was not aware that hudson made chips)
03:00
<@Vornicus>
(...there is probably a reason for this.)
03:01
<@McMartin>
(Modified 65SC02, which makes it a cousin of the Apple ][e/C64/NES/Atari 2600)
03:01
<@McMartin>
(Closest to the ][e)
03:02
<@McMartin>
(C64 used 6510 and was basically the only thing that did; NES used the 2A03, which was a 6502 with BCD removed and replaced with a sound generator; 2600 used a 6507, which is a stock 6502 with fewer pins)
03:03
<@Vornicus>
(I also thought the 2600 had an even less powerful proc than that)
03:03
<@McMartin>
(The 6502 had - has - insane staying power. In terms of design it's probably the finest 8-bit chip ever made)
03:06
<@McMartin>
(It and the Z80 still see use in embedded stuff today - basically anythign that isn't demanding enough to want an ARM.)
04:01
< ToxicFrog>
I regret every day that I settled for pidgin rather than installing bitlbee.
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04:43
< SchoolPhox>
Sad face. Finally got my LCD controller working. Turns out, though, that the monkey who tried to solder to it when we first bought it killed off a block of pixels. Either cooked the RAM controlling it, or killed the screen itself.
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05:18
<@Derakon>
Hey, that looks reasonably promising. http://derakon.dyndns.org/~chriswei/games/jbrl/mapgen38c.png
05:19
<@Derakon>
My main concern is the random vertical stripes, which I suspect are a side-effect of the "pit" tunnel type thinking it can go where it really, really can't.
05:34
<@McMartin>
Is there anything intrinsically wrong with that?
05:34
<@McMartin>
It's v. Kraid's Lair
05:39
<@Derakon>
I'd rather be doing that intentionally~
05:42 * Derakon inserts a quadtree into his graph edge pruning system, somehow manages to prune everything.
05:42
<@Derakon>
This is strange because I don't think I actually changed the pruning logic itself; just made the "find nodes near this edge" logic faster.
05:42
<@Derakon>
Oh wait, yes I did change it. Nevermind!
05:43
<@Derakon>
I had to make a wrapper class for Vector2D that implements getBounds() so that I could insert point objects into my quadtree; this means that the "is" operator no longer works. Thus, edges thought that nodes that were in fact parts of those edges were too close to said edges.
05:49
<@Derakon>
Okay. It may have taken two minutes, but I generated a 450x450-block map with, as far as I can see, no blocked-off areas...fuck. There's a hole (unintended loop).
05:50
<@Derakon>
Dammit, the tunnel carving algorithm is supposed to be robust!
05:51
<@Derakon>
And now I have a bug whose repro case involves two minutes of map generation and an unusably large set of vertices and edges. >.<
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16:10 mode/#code [+o ToxicFrog] by Reiver
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17:00 Serah is now known as Stalker
17:04 AnnoDomini is now known as Ta`akozoka
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21:16 Ta`akozoka [annodomini@Nightstar-e08db067.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [[NS] Quit: Reconnecting]
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22:42 AbuDhabi is now known as AnnoDomini
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23:51 * Reiv pokes ToxicFrog
23:53
<@ToxicFrog>
Yar?
23:56 * ToxicFrog bonks Reiv with a bitlbee server
23:58
< Reiv>
www.rockpapershotgun.com
23:58
<@ToxicFrog>
Yes?
23:59
< Reiv>
No problems?
23:59
< Reiv>
http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2011/03/08/counter-strike-2-release/#more-53419 - any problems here instead?
23:59
< Reiv>
Opera is crashing out on a bad flash element.
23:59
< Reiv>
The kicker: Chrome isn't.
--- Log closed Wed Mar 09 00:00:00 2011
code logs -> 2011 -> Tue, 08 Mar 2011< code.20110307.log - code.20110309.log >