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code logs -> 2010 -> Mon, 01 Nov 2010< code.20101031.log - code.20101102.log >
--- Log opened Mon Nov 01 00:00:24 2010
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16:08 mode/#code [+o Derakon] by Reiver
16:09 celticminstrel [celticminstre@Nightstar-f8b608eb.cable.rogers.com] has joined #code
16:10
<@Derakon>
I get to lead our group meeting this Friday.
16:10
<@Derakon>
My current plan is to give a talk on Python, numpy, and wx.
16:11
<@Derakon>
In other words, basic array manipulation and GUI programming, with a sidebar on how to program in Python (assuming that everyone already knows how to program to a greater or lesser extent).
16:12
<@Derakon>
So I figure I'll start off with Hello World, then have a slide showing basic program constructs (function definition, if/else/for/while, import statements).
16:12
<@Derakon>
Then move into numpy and array manipulations.
16:12
<@Derakon>
Hmm...basic program constructs may need to be multiple slides, actually, but they can be covered pretty quickly.
16:14
< celticminstrel>
Numpy is the library that makes use of all that obscure extended slice syntax...
16:14
<@Derakon>
Yes, it does.
16:14
<@Derakon>
foo[a:b,c:d]
16:14
<@Derakon>
I'm not going to cover numpy in detail, though. Just go over common operations.
16:18
<@Derakon>
Talk title: Common Scientitfic Programming Practices. Sound good?
16:18
< celticminstrel>
Sure.
16:27
<@ToxicFrog>
\o/ I have successfully run Felt on a machine I didn't develop it on!
16:27
<@ToxicFrog>
Still no windows support though.
16:27
<@Derakon>
Hooray!
16:28
<@Derakon>
What's breaking cross-platform compat?
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16:28
<@Derakon>
Hmm...the Ackermann function ought to be a good example of while loops, if statements, and function declarations.
16:30
<@Derakon>
Actually, no. Let's not go there.
16:30
<@Derakon>
...argh, what's that classic sequence called? 1,1,2,3,5,8,13, etc.?
16:31
< celticminstrel>
Fibonacci?
16:31
<@Derakon>
That's it, thanks.
16:37
<@ToxicFrog>
Derakon: not breaking per se, but to run it on windows I need windows binaries for glib, gdk, gtk, cairo, lua, luagnome, luasocket, and luafilesystem.
16:37
<@ToxicFrog>
Not all of these are readily available; in particular, I need to build the windows version of luagnome myself.
16:37
<@ToxicFrog>
Which actually has support in the build scripts for a linux-host, mingw32-target cross compile, but also assumes that everyone's cross-compile setup is identical to Debian's in every respect.
16:38
<@Derakon>
Ahh, dependency hell.
16:38
<@Derakon>
Good luck.
16:40 * Derakon tries to think of a function that demonstrates while loops and if statements without being horridly contrived or having any other dependencies.
16:41
<@ToxicFrog>
Isn't A a good example of recursion, because it was specifically designed not to be easily expressible non-recursively?
16:42
<@Derakon>
Yeah.
16:42
<@Derakon>
Which is why I realized I didn't really want to use it as an example.
16:42
<@Derakon>
Recursion is interesting as a programming concept, but not for purposes of demonstrating how Python works if you can already program.
16:42
<@Derakon>
I'm just looking for concise examples that people can use to quickly start writing their own programs.
16:44
<@ToxicFrog>
You could always due iterative factorial, but I think that may count as "horribly contrived"
16:44
<@ToxicFrog>
s/due/do/
16:44
<@Derakon>
Heh.
16:45
<@Derakon>
Actually, that works rather nicely.
16:45
<@Derakon>
def factorial(n):
16:45
<@Derakon>
 if n < 1:
16:45
<@Derakon>
 return None
16:45
<@Derakon>
 accumulator = 1
16:45
<@Derakon>
 while n > 1:
16:45
<@Derakon>
 accumulator *= n
16:45
<@Derakon>
 n -= 1
16:45
<@Derakon>
 return accumulator
16:45
< celticminstrel>
Uh, 0! = 1
16:45
<@Derakon>
...right, thanks.
16:45 * ToxicFrog installs 150MB of cross-compile dependencies
16:47
<@Derakon>
Okay, what other basic programming constructs should I cover? So far I have for loops, lists, while loops, if statements, function declarations and calling.
16:47
<@Derakon>
Keeping in mind these people should already know how to program.
16:49
< celticminstrel>
What about non-basic novelties like "with" <_<
16:49
<@Derakon>
...I don't think I've ever used with.
16:49
< celticminstrel>
Meh.
16:50
< celticminstrel>
It's like Java's "synchronized" statement, but more flexible.
16:50
< celticminstrel>
Or possibly like the new try-with-resources construct in Java. I dunno.
16:50
< celticminstrel>
Still, it's not really necessary for files, which is the most obvious use of it.
16:51
<@Derakon>
Hm, File I/O.
16:51
<@Derakon>
Could be useful.
16:52
< celticminstrel>
Did I just "accidentally" suggest something? :P
16:52
<@Derakon>
If it helps you sleep at night, sure. :p
16:53
<@Derakon>
I need a fruit whose name begins with 'c'.
16:53
< celticminstrel>
cranberry?
16:53
<@Derakon>
Sure.
16:53
< celticminstrel>
Or currant.
16:53
<@Derakon>
Currants are a bit British.
16:53
< celticminstrel>
Are they?
16:54
< celticminstrel>
Also cherry.
16:54
<@Derakon>
They certainly aren't very common on the west coast of the USA where I'll be giving this talk.
16:55
< celticminstrel>
Okay, whatever.
17:00
<@Derakon>
Cherries work nicely though.
17:09
<@ToxicFrog>
What does 'with' do?
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17:35
< celticminstrel>
Automatic cleanup, basically.
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18:41
<@ToxicFrog>
...how is that anything like "synchronized"?
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18:44
<@ToxicFrog>
Wow. The openSUSE cross compile setup is way more civilized than trying to build stuff on windows itself.
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19:28
<@Derakon>
Ahh, I have an introductory quote for my talk.
19:28
<@Derakon>
"The purpose of every programmer is to render himself obsolete."
19:29
< celticminstrel>
Mainly because one of the uses of "with" is the same as the use of "sunchronized".
19:33 * Derakon eyes this email subject: "Shapr the Furue - Vote on Tuesday!"
19:35
<@ToxicFrog>
19:36
<@ToxicFrog>
celticminstrel: except "synchronized" enables automatic locking for multithreaded programs.
19:36
<@ToxicFrog>
It has nothing to do with resource lifetime control.
19:36
< celticminstrel>
You can use "with" for locking for multithreaded programs.
19:36
<@ToxicFrog>
How?
19:36
< celticminstrel>
The "resource" is a mutex, or something.
19:37
<@ToxicFrog>
A lock held on a mutex, you mean?
19:37
< celticminstrel>
That's probably what I mean, yes.
19:37
<@ToxicFrog>
(I'm operating on the assumption that "with" is basically a way of introducing block scope to python?)
19:48 Rhamphoryncus [rhamph@Nightstar-473f8685.abhsia.telus.net] has joined #code
19:49
<@Derakon>
TF: why not ask Rhamphoryncus? ;)
19:50 * Rhamphoryncus hides behind jerith
19:55
< Rhamphoryncus>
'sup?
20:07
< celticminstrel>
It's sort of like that, yes, TF.
20:07
< celticminstrel>
...my terminal's linewrapping is broken. :|
20:14
<@Derakon>
Rhamph: discussing the "with" keyword.
20:14
< Rhamphoryncus>
ah
20:15
< Rhamphoryncus>
's a good word. Nice firm feel to it
20:23
< Rhamphoryncus>
Got a specific question?
20:23
< celticminstrel>
About the terminal's linewrapping? :P
20:23
<@Derakon>
TF was just wondering what it was, and then arguing with Celtic over his explanation.
20:26 * celticminstrel is updating Boost.
20:39
<@ToxicFrog>
Rhamphoryncus: I was asking about it in Python
20:39
<@ToxicFrog>
CM said that "it's like synchronized in Java", which turns out to be not at all the case.
20:39
< Rhamphoryncus>
sorry, didn't realize you replied
20:40
< Rhamphoryncus>
It *can* be used for synchronized in java, but it's really more like RAII in C++
20:40
<@ToxicFrog>
Yeah, that's the impression I'm getting - it creates a new scope and guarantees that stuff local to that scope is collected at scope exit, or similar
20:41
< Rhamphoryncus>
with open('blah', 'w') as f: # Do stuff and be sure it'll be closed and flushed when this scope is exited, whether it's normally or with an error
20:41
<@ToxicFrog>
Which means you can use it for synchronization (by acquiring a lock at scope entry) but it is nothing at all like synchronized (which is a function annotation)
20:41
< celticminstrel>
Synchronized also has a block form, but yeah, "with" is a superset of it.
20:41
< Rhamphoryncus>
It's just the one thing it closes, not everything in that scope
20:42
<@ToxicFrog>
celticminstrel: synchronized also always locks on this
20:42
< Rhamphoryncus>
And technically the file object still exits, it's just the os-level handle that's closed
20:51
<@Derakon>
In that example, how do you know that the object will be closed? Don't you need to call close() on it?
20:51
<@Derakon>
Or is there some kind of implicit destructor?
20:51
<@Derakon>
(In which case, how would you invoke that implicit destructor properly for custom objects that need to handle their own cleanup?)
20:52
< celticminstrel>
Pretty sure synchronized can lock on any arbitrary object.
20:53
< celticminstrel>
Yes, yes it can.
20:54
< celticminstrel>
For "with", you need an object that has the __enter__ and __exit__ member functions; __enter__ is called before the block executes, and __exit__ is called afterwards even if an exception is thrown.
20:55
< celticminstrel>
So, for custom objects, you just need to define those two methods.
21:54 * Derakon eyes his presentation outline.
21:54
<@Derakon>
11 slides and one demo.
21:54
<@Derakon>
Is that gonna be enough to fill an hour?
21:55
<@Derakon>
http://derakon.dyndns.org/~chriswei/temp2/outline.txt
21:57
<@TheWatcher>
HArd to say from slides - I've known people give hour long presentations with two slides, and some who can't fill 10 minutes with 30
21:57
<@Derakon>
It's also going to depend heavily on how much back-and-forth I get.
22:00
<@TheWatcher>
hm
22:02
<@TheWatcher>
I'd suggest timing your presentation as-is, assuming no audience interaction, and see where it comes to - if it comes out less than 40 minutes, I'd think about adding material if possible
22:03
<@Derakon>
That in turn depends on how thoroughly I feel like preparing for this talk~
22:03
<@TheWatcher>
heh
22:03
<@Derakon>
(Last time I just took some screenshots of the microscope program and walked through them)
22:04
<@Derakon>
If you've taken a look at the outline -- anything you think I'm missing?
22:05
<@Derakon>
My basic goal being to show people who already know some programming how Python programs work.
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22:53
<@ToxicFrog>
FUCK YOUUUUUUUUUUUUUU WINDOWS AND YOUR ANCIENT ASS-BACKWARDS WAY OF LINKING DYNAMIC LIBRARIES
22:53
<@ToxicFrog>
DIE
22:53
<@ToxicFrog>
DIEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
23:03
< EvilDarkLord>
That sounds exciting. What are you up to exactly?
23:10 * TheWatcher patpats TF, hands him the Pitchfork of Retribution
23:14
<@ToxicFrog>
I am trying to build a windows version of luagnome
23:15
<@ToxicFrog>
This is made difficult by the fact that windows expects you to statically link against a stub library that provides proxies for the real functions in the dynamic library (or something like that)
23:20
<@ToxicFrog>
So, luagnome doesn't link against any of the gtk libraries by default, assuming that dlopen() or your local equivalent can find it (and all of the necessary functions therein) at runtime.
23:20
<@ToxicFrog>
Meanwhile, the windows build of glib and friends assume they can do whatever the fuck they want with the DLL because all of the functions were resolved at compile time when you linked against libglib-2.0-0.dll.a.
23:22
<@ToxicFrog>
I'm trying to work around this, but I may end up building all of fucking GTK from scratch without static stub libraries to get this to work.
23:42 You're now known as TheWatcher[T-2]
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--- Log closed Tue Nov 02 00:00:25 2010
code logs -> 2010 -> Mon, 01 Nov 2010< code.20101031.log - code.20101102.log >
 search of the:   for: