| --- Log opened Mon Mar 01 00:00:08 2010 |
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| 01:43 | < Reiv> | So, um |
| 01:43 | < Reiv> | Java, my old nemisis. This semester, I must master it. |
| 01:44 | < Serah> | Point and laugh: Hope for the best? |
| 01:45 | < Reiv> | Hope will result in my failure. |
| 01:47 | < Serah> | I'd suggest rage and hate then. |
| 01:47 | < Serah> | It probably won't help much though. |
| 01:50 | < Finerty> | Java's main difficulties lie in its libraries. What are you using it for? |
| 01:51 | < Finerty> | (also, deciding what things are synchronized, for certain things...) |
| 01:54 | < ToxicFrog> | Nemesis. |
| 01:55 | < Reiv> | Eheh. |
| 01:55 | < ToxicFrog> | Good luck. |
| 01:55 | < Reiv> | I'm... not going to be using very many libraries. |
| 01:55 | < Reiv> | I'm handcrafting compression and search alogratms. |
| 01:56 | < Reiv> | Including, apparently, a bitpacker/ |
| 01:56 | < Reiv> | And a whole pile of trees. |
| 01:56 | < Reiv> | Which... I still do not understand ;_; |
| 01:56 | < Reiv> | And yes, we're handcrafting them. |
| 01:57 | < Finerty> | Ah, so, stuff that's actually not that bad. |
| 01:57 | < Reiv> | I don't %Bcomprehend%B trees |
| 01:57 | < Finerty> | Well, okay, but that's not a Java problem, and we can help with that even without any Java knowledge. |
| 01:57 | < Finerty> | TF and I are both pretty competent in data structures, TF especially. |
| 01:58 | < Reiv> | And my java skills have rusted badly enough that my current project of writing a file loader and file printer is beyond me~ |
| 01:59 | < Reiv> | (If this sounds familiar, this is the paper I bombed out of last year due to illness.) |
| 02:06 | < Reiv> | So am wondering if people are willing to help me a bit eith it; my problem seems to be "I know half the basics well enough that dredging through tutorials for the other half is infuriating" variety. |
| 02:15 | < ToxicFrog> | Mmm, trees |
| 02:16 | | * Reiv does not comprehend them, nor linked lists. Never has. ;_; |
| 02:16 | < ToxicFrog> | File IO in java is awkward (but easy) once you know how, but is really hard to figure out on your own since there's 8,986 library classes related to files, IO, and file IO. |
| 02:16 | < Reiv> | yeah, I um, noticed. |
| 02:17 | < Reiv> | hn. |
| 02:17 | < ToxicFrog> | Typical approach is something like (IIRC): |
| 02:17 | < ToxicFrog> | Reader fin = new BufferedReader(new File(filename)); |
| 02:17 | < ToxicFrog> | Writer fout = new BufferedWriter(new File(filename)); |
| 02:17 | | * Reiv wonders: Do anyfolk here use voicechat of any kind? |
| 02:17 | < ToxicFrog> | I have been known to use Skype on very rare occasions, and Teamspeak/Ventrilo for games. |
| 02:18 | < Reiv> | oh, yes. Need to accept commandline stuff too. I vaugely recall you do that with constructors |
| 02:18 | < ToxicFrog> | Nope. |
| 02:18 | < ToxicFrog> | You do it in main(), like in C. |
| 02:18 | < ToxicFrog> | class MyProgram { |
| 02:18 | < ToxicFrog> | public static void main(String argv[]) { /* args is an array of strings containing the command line options */ |
| 02:19 | < Reiv> | Reccomended IDE? I used to use Elipse, but that was because Chalain used it too. >.> |
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| 02:20 | < ToxicFrog> | I don't work in Java enough to have a preferred IDE. Eclipse is, from what I've used of it, decent. |
| 02:20 | < Reiv> | Alrighty then. |
| 02:20 | < ToxicFrog> | (I will probably be of more help to you with general data-structures questions than with Java specific stuff) |
| 02:21 | < Reiv> | (I appreciate all the help I can get, everywhere I can get it) |
| 02:22 | < Serah> | If you have specific questions I live with someone who does Java for a living. |
| 02:22 | < Finerty> | I don't know java file ops from adam right now. |
| 02:23 | < Reiv> | (I need not to pass, but to pass well, and this guy is one of your classic "Teaches precisely one paper below masters, PHD & research level... and this is it" fellows. And also assumes you have been living and breathing code for two years before you showed up - not unreasonable for 3rd year programming paper... just also inaccurate. >.<) |
| 02:24 | | * Reiv will have more stabbage at it, is just slightly stressed right now. Apologies~ |
| 02:28 | < ToxicFrog> | Anyways, I will be glad to help you with linked lists, trees, and whatnot, optionally in a language you're more comfortable with |
| 02:29 | < Reiv> | Java is the tested language, so I probably need to focus on that anyway. Thank you, however - are you liable to be hugely busy over the next 12 weeks? |
| 02:29 | < ToxicFrog> | The next 8 are the last eight of my degree, so I'll be oscillating between, "fine" and "augh get them off me get them off" |
| 02:30 | | * Reiv nods |
| 02:30 | | * Finerty isn't particularly busy. |
| 02:30 | < Reiv> | I will keep that in mind. Though any help you can offer would be great. |
| 02:30 | < ToxicFrog> | And my thinking with other languages is that it's easier to get your mind around a data structure when you aren't also struggling with the language. |
| 02:31 | < Reiv> | Vorn: How do you feel about brushing up on java so I can ask you stupid questions~ |
| 02:31 | < ToxicFrog> | Once you understand how it works, you can then worry about translating it into other languages. |
| 02:31 | < ToxicFrog> | (which is the easy part) |
| 02:31 | < Finerty> | I can look into it. |
| 02:32 | < ToxicFrog> | (indeed I can discuss linked lists right now!) |
| 02:32 | < ToxicFrog> | Incidentally, what languages are you already familiar with? |
| 02:32 | < Reiv> | I suppose. Ehn. Will think about it, but may stick with Java for the immediate moment anyhow. Partly because I have clearance to get Java stuffs installed in the specialty labs at uni. |
| 02:34 | < celticminstrel> | So, if a before update trigger sets a not-null column to null, does the entire update fail? |
| 02:36 | < celticminstrel> | (This in MySQL.) |
| 02:37 | < Finerty> | I hope so. |
| 02:41 | < ToxicFrog> | Reiv: well, let me know. |
| 02:44 | < Reiv> | TF: At the immediate moment, I am semi-proficient in Python, java, and a couple silly scripting languages. Unofortunately, my earnest intentions to relearn programming in general over the holidays fell rather short due to a few factors (Short version: IRL sucked, and my organisation skills sucked equally after each disturbance~). |
| 02:44 | < ToxicFrog> | Which scripting languages? |
| 02:44 | < Reiv> | Also I somehow got distracted into learning SkecthUp instead, which was lots of fun and potentially useful... but not in this course. |
| 02:45 | < Reiv> | One AFAICT based off Python, a couple others that were nerfbat'd C. |
| 02:45 | < ToxicFrog> | ...names? |
| 02:46 | < Reiv> | From games. Mount&Blade taught me the Python-Lite. |
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| 02:50 | < ToxicFrog> | Aah. |
| 02:50 | < ToxicFrog> | (no experience with C proper?) |
| 02:50 | < Reiv> | (Yes, but eons ago) |
| 02:51 | < celticminstrel> | Finerty, was that a response to me or to Reiv? |
| 02:52 | < Reiv> | Anyway! |
| 02:52 | < Finerty> | celmin: to you |
| 02:52 | < celticminstrel> | Well, I hope so too. |
| 02:52 | < Reiv> | Off to my Very First Class. Wheee... |
| 02:52 | | * Reiv goes. Shall return in 2+ hours. |
| 02:52 | < celticminstrel> | Because that's the assumption I'm making. |
| 02:52 | < celticminstrel> | ...though I guess there's plenty of time to ask the professor, anyway. |
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| 04:05 | | * McMartin gets the OpenGL book examples to actually compile under Snow Leopard, which took more work than it should have. |
| 04:05 | <@McMartin> | -fpascal-strings? Really? |
| 04:08 | < Vornicus> | ....i... |
| 04:08 | < Vornicus> | I have never, not once, seen that flag. |
| 04:08 | <@McMartin> | Their gltools.cpp requires it to compile. |
| 04:08 | < Vornicus> | what's it do? |
| 04:08 | <@McMartin> | And, you can't use Snow Leopard's default gcc to link it, either |
| 04:09 | <@McMartin> | Because some of the deprecated calls went away in the latest revisions, and it makes them |
| 04:09 | <@McMartin> | What does the flag do or what does gltools do that apparently requires it? |
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| 04:11 | <@McMartin> | What it does is enable the \p escape, which makes a string constant a Pascal string (lead byte is size) instead of a C string (null terminated). |
| 04:12 | < celticminstrel> | Why are they even using Pascal strings? |
| 04:12 | <@McMartin> | Why it does it is apparently because it's using the deprecated Carbon call FSMakeFSSPec which seems to take one as one of its arguments. |
| 04:12 | < celticminstrel> | Ah. |
| 04:13 | <@McMartin> | And if you use g++ instead of g++-4.0 to link, Carbon doesn't have that call and it doesn't link anyway |
| 04:13 | <@McMartin> | <3 |
| 04:13 | < celticminstrel> | XD |
| 04:14 | <@McMartin> | But my 1337 sk1llz have defeated their 1336 sk1llz. |
| 04:14 | <@McMartin> | Leeging legacy calls. |
| 04:14 | < celticminstrel> | 1336 = leeb? |
| 04:14 | <@McMartin> | For historical reasons I render that "leeg" |
| 04:15 | <@McMartin> | It makes a handy generic swear word |
| 04:15 | <@McMartin> | Seriously confuses Dutch speakers, though |
| 04:15 | <@McMartin> | (As it is also Dutch for "empty", IIRC, and pronounced completely differently) |
| 04:46 | | * Orth returns |
| 04:46 | < Orth> | Hn. Have an interesting program to implement. Time to break out Teh Javas |
| 04:47 | < celticminstrel> | I hope it's not a math program. |
| 04:47 | < Orth> | Heavens, yes. |
| 04:47 | < celticminstrel> | What is it? |
| 04:49 | < Orth> | ...Although, hn. OK, er, he used a notation I do not recognise. Maybe I can steal some help here |
| 04:49 | < Orth> | func(m,n) = {m == 0, n+1 |
| 04:49 | < Orth> | {n == 0, func(m-1,1) |
| 04:49 | < Orth> | {else func(m-1,func(m,n-1) |
| 04:49 | < Orth> | The {s were one big one. |
| 04:50 | < celticminstrel> | The {'s were what now? |
| 04:51 | < celticminstrel> | Oh. |
| 04:51 | < celticminstrel> | Never mind. |
| 04:51 | < celticminstrel> | Okay, that's a piecewise function definition. |
| 04:51 | < Orth> | OK |
| 04:51 | < Orth> | When does the else kick in? |
| 04:51 | < celticminstrel> | At least, it looks like it. |
| 04:52 | < celticminstrel> | So, if m is 0, the function evaluates to n+1. If n is 0, it evaluates to func(m-1,1). Otherwise (neither parameter is 0) it evaluates to func(m-1,func(m,n-1)). |
| 04:52 | < Orth> | Probably is. He seemed to expect us to recognise it, but I've not done a couple of the papers he probably assumes we did. |
| 04:52 | < Orth> | Aaah |
| 04:52 | < celticminstrel> | Usually the piecewise functions I've seen have the condition after the formula, though. |
| 04:53 | < Orth> | If both are 0, evaluates to n+1 ? |
| 04:53 | < celticminstrel> | And it would say "otherwise" instead of "else". |
| 04:53 | < Orth> | Well, he was scrawling it quickly, so |
| 04:53 | < celticminstrel> | Um... I'm guessing both 0 means n+1, yes, |
| 04:53 | < Orth> | OK. Cheers. |
| 04:53 | < Orth> | That makes it way easier~ |
| 04:54 | < Orth> | Oh, also, ToxicFrog: I forgot to add Haskell to that list, but as a functional programming language it's probably not a good example anyway~ |
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| 05:00 | < Vornicus-Latens> | Jesus Christ, Ackermann? |
| 05:00 | < ToxicFrog> | Is that AckermannDAMMIT VORN |
| 05:01 | < Vornicus-Latens> | Couldn't you have picked a better-behaved function? |
| 05:03 | < ToxicFrog> | Vornicus-Latens: Ackermann is nice in that (1) it's easy to describe and (2) you can't cheat and implement it iteratively. |
| 05:03 | < celticminstrel> | By the way, Vornicus-Latens, thanks for that link. |
| 05:03 | < Orth> | Shaddup, we're doing Ackermann on purpose |
| 05:03 | < Vornicus-Latens> | I mean, hell, Stirling Numbers of the Second Kind |
| 05:04 | < Orth> | By way of 'learn by doing' of how to break Total Correctness, as I understand it~ |
| 05:04 | < ToxicFrog> | Of course, it's _not_ nice in that A(<anything larger than small>) tends to be an integer overflow~ |
| 05:04 | < Orth> | Or something like that anyway |
| 05:05 | | * Orth stabs Eclipse. Why do you make me set up seven million packages and expansions and I can't remember what they're all meant to do, just to let me at a code screen |
| 05:06 | < ToxicFrog> | ...ISTR you can just say "new project" and accept the defaults and it'll work |
| 05:06 | < Orth> | Hn, OK |
| 05:06 | < Vornicus-Latens> | on the other hand eclipse is kind of built for larger projects. |
| 05:07 | < Orth> | Is there anything better for doing smallish stuff? |
| 05:07 | < Vornicus-Latens> | jEdit may be more appropriate; it's just a text editor, but it's built /in/ java, mostly /for/ java. |
| 05:07 | < Orth> | hn |
| 05:07 | | * Orth accosts it to see what it does. |
| 05:07 | < Orth> | sec, router reset |
| 05:07 | < ToxicFrog> | I would dispute the "mostly for Java"; afaict it doesn't have any Java-specific features beyond what it has for other languages. |
| 05:08 | < ToxicFrog> | That said, it is my code editor of choice. |
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| 05:09 | < ToxicFrog> | <ToxicFrog> I would dispute the "mostly for Java"; afaict it doesn't have any Java-specific features beyond what it has for other languages. |
| 05:09 | < ToxicFrog> | <ToxicFrog> That said, it is my code editor of choice. |
| 05:09 | | * Orthia sets about downloading jEdit, then. |
| 05:09 | < ToxicFrog> | So yes, you can easily write some stuff using that (or any other text editor you prefer) and then just use 'javac' and 'java' to build and run. |
| 05:10 | < Orthia> | Does it come with some quick and convinient IDE-esque way to do the javac and java commands? |
| 05:10 | < Orthia> | Just askin', here. |
| 05:11 | < Orthia> | Query while we wait for this damn download to speed up: relating to the probability stuff we did the other day: What is the average result of the pool of values 0, 3x 1-6, and 2d6? |
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| 05:12 | < Orthia> | My probability math sucks. |
| 05:12 | < ToxicFrog> | I'm not sure; I do know that if it doesn't, you can add it fairly easily - there's a menu for user defined commands. |
| 05:13 | < ToxicFrog> | It's just sigma(value*probability), IIRC |
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| 05:14 | < Orthia> | sigma, idly? |
| 05:15 | < Orthia> | ...oops |
| 05:15 | < ToxicFrog> | ? |
| 05:15 | < Orthia> | OK, right, that would help~ |
| 05:15 | < Vornicus-Latens> | Average: 5.72 |
| 05:15 | < Orthia> | Do I want JDE or JDK if I'm programming? >_> |
| 05:15 | < Vornicus-Latens> | Median: 6 |
| 05:15 | < Vornicus-Latens> | JDK. |
| 05:15 | < Orthia> | Vorn, er, my error |
| 05:16 | < ToxicFrog> | JDE? Do you mean JRE, or has Sun released another incomprehensible acronym? |
| 05:16 | < Orthia> | I meant "One zero, three each of 1 to 6, and one of 2d6" |
| 05:16 | < Orthia> | Probably JRE. |
| 05:16 | < Orthia> | I dunno, I read it off the error message that told me I'd forgotten to shove Java on the clean install yet~ |
| 05:17 | < Vornicus-Latens> | Orthia: so, uh, you're... rolling a d5, getting 0 once, a d6 three times, and 2d6 once? |
| 05:17 | < ToxicFrog> | No. |
| 05:17 | < ToxicFrog> | It's d20. |
| 05:17 | < ToxicFrog> | One face is 0. |
| 05:17 | < ToxicFrog> | Three faces each are 1,2,3,4,5,6 |
| 05:17 | < ToxicFrog> | And the last face says "roll 2d6" |
| 05:17 | < Vornicus-Latens> | Oh, then 3 each of 1-6, and then the 20th face says "r... |
| 05:18 | < Vornicus-Latens> | k, one moment |
| 05:18 | < Orthia> | (I really need to get better at explaining this stuff, I apologise) |
| 05:19 | < Vornicus-Latens> | Average. 3.5 |
| 05:20 | < Vornicus-Latens> | Median: 3 |
| 05:20 | < Vornicus-Latens> | Stdev: 2.03 |
| 05:21 | < Orthia> | ... of course it is, the 0 is countered by the 2d6 precisely. |
| 05:21 | < Vornicus-Latens> | Mode: 6 (by 1; there's 113 6s, 112 5s, etc) |
| 05:21 | < Vornicus-Latens> | Indeed |
| 05:21 | < Orthia> | Sorry, that oen counts as a bit of a stupid question then, but I wanted to check~ |
| 05:21 | < Orthia> | Second bit: What is the average roll of the following ruleset: Roll 2 distinct d6s. Ignore second d6 unless it makes a pair (aka 1d6). On pairs, the following: 1s: 0. 2s: 0. 3s: 4. 4s: 5. 5s: reroll 2d6, min 5. 6s: reroll 2d6, min 6. |
| 05:22 | < Orthia> | (Er. Reword of second sentence: Ignore second die, treating as 1d6 unless you get a pair.) |
| 05:22 | < Vornicus-Latens> | So confused. |
| 05:23 | < ToxicFrog> | Orthia: for future reference: JRE is Java Runtime Environment, needed to execute Java programs. JDK is JAva Development Kit, needed to create them. |
| 05:23 | < Vornicus-Latens> | When you say "min 5" do you mean "clamp values to at least 5" or "reroll until you get 5"? |
| 05:23 | < Orthia> | TF: Danke |
| 05:23 | < Vornicus-Latens> | But I really need bed. |
| 05:23 | < Orthia> | Vorn: Clamp, though my understanding is that the two are equivalent |
| 05:23 | < Vornicus-Latens> | Orthia: not quite. |
| 05:23 | < ToxicFrog> | In practical terms this means the JRE gets you 'java' and 'javaw' and the JDK gets you 'javac'. |
| 05:24 | < Orthia> | Vorn: Really? OK. Well, the idea: Pair of 1s: Treat as 0. Pair of 2s: Treat as 0. Pair of 3s: Treat as 4. Pair of 4s: Treat as 5. Pair of 5s: Reroll 2d6, clamp to 5. Pair of 6s: Reroll 2d6, clamp to 6. |
| 05:24 | < Vornicus-Latens> | The former gives distribution 0 0 0 0 10 5 6 5 4 3 2 1, the latter 0 0 0 0 4 5 6 5 4 3 2 1 |
| 05:24 | < Orthia> | Aaah, ok. Yeah, clamp. |
| 05:24 | < Vornicus-Latens> | Ok. |
| 05:24 | < Vornicus-Latens> | But, slep. |
| 05:24 | < Orthia> | (Sorry, I suspect half this is "I didn't know you called it 'clamp' to begin with"~) |
| 05:25 | < Orthia> | nini Vorn |
| 05:28 | < ToxicFrog> | Orthia: I suspect any problems you have with Ackermann will be of the getting the development environment set up/remembering how to express basic concepts in the language kind. |
| 05:29 | < Orthia> | TF: Indeed, that shouldn't be too scary now |
| 05:29 | < Orthia> | It was trying to compherehend his syntax that threw me |
| 05:29 | < ToxicFrog> | Oh yes, and WRT "what happens if they're both zero": convention is that you read top to bottom, and the first matching rule is the one you take. |
| 05:29 | < ToxicFrog> | (you hadn't previously encountered that notation in, say, Calculus?) |
| 05:30 | <@McMartin> | Happily, this also matches the resolution mechanic exactly in Haskell and ML-family languages |
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| 05:36 | < Orthia> | TF: I have not done past 7th form calculus |
| 05:36 | < Orthia> | And did /that/ in 6th form~ |
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| 05:37 | < Orthia> | TF: My biggest problem tends not to be the logical issues (Other than gorram trees), but in "Damnit, it's been too long and I've forgotten what you call everything" |
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| 05:41 | < ToxicFrog> | Right. |
| 05:47 | < ToxicFrog> | Trees really aren't that hard, especially if you already grok lists. |
| 05:53 | < ToxicFrog> | (which from what you said you don't, so we'll work on those first) |
| 06:03 | < Orthia> | (Thank you!) |
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| 06:04 | < Orthia> | At last, Java is installings. |
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| 07:23 | < Orthia> | hmm |
| 07:23 | < Orthia> | jEdit is not half bad. |
| 07:23 | < Orthia> | Though I admit I miss Eclipses function hints |
| 07:24 | <@McMartin> | Agreed on both counts |
| 07:28 | < Orthia> | hn |
| 07:29 | < Orthia> | I admit, I think I sort of /need/ Eclipses function hints at the moment; I'm sufficiently rusty that I can't just asspull them and having to look up every freakin' command is getting tiresome fast. |
| 07:31 | < ToxicFrog> | Orthia: check the plugin manager; there might be one that adds that, even if it's java-only. |
| 07:33 | < Orthia> | ... ooh, will do |
| 07:33 | < Orthia> | I mean, that's probably the #1 bit I'd need. |
| 07:33 | < Orthia> | Other than maybe a quick-key to look up a specific function in the java libraries. |
| 07:38 | < ToxicFrog> | I know there's a plugin for that. |
| 07:38 | < ToxicFrog> | JIndex, I think it's called. |
| 07:39 | < ToxicFrog> | And now, the slep. |
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| 09:56 | <@McMartin> | Wow, the graphics tutorials these days look a lot shinier than they did back when I was writing Sable. |
| 10:00 | <@McMartin> | http://hkn.eecs.berkeley.edu/~mcmartin/demo.jpg |
| 10:00 | <@McMartin> | Beats the shit out of line-art teapots, that's for sure~ |
| 10:46 | < TheWatcher> | Heh, where's that one from? |
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| 10:47 | < TheWatcher> | (I'm also surprised you still have a berkeley account) |
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| 19:49 | <@McMartin> | TW: It's from the OpenGL Comprehensive Tutorial And Reference. |
| 20:13 | < SmithKurosaki> | How are the coders today |
| 21:19 | < Vornicus-Latens> | This coder is codericious |
| 21:19 | | * Vornicus-Latens cookies Smith |
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| --- Log closed Tue Mar 02 00:00:09 2010 |