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code logs -> 2009 -> Wed, 16 Sep 2009< code.20090915.log - code.20090917.log >
--- Log opened Wed Sep 16 00:00:35 2009
00:55 Derakon[work] [Derakon@Nightstar-d44d635e.ucsf.edu] has quit [[NS] Quit: Leaving]
01:02 * Vornicus hopes he was of assistance.
01:06 Tarinaky_ [Tarinaky@Nightstar-f349ca6d.plus.com] has quit [Connection closed]
01:32 NSGuest-2201 is now known as Reiver
01:32 mode/#code [+qo Reiver Reiver] by ChanServ
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02:11
< Vornicus>
Der: so how much success did that bring you?
02:11 Nathia [c0cb88fe@Nightstar-14e5d099.mibbit.com] has quit [[NS] Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client]
02:23
< Derakon>
Vorn: it's a help, certainly...I still have some bugs to sort out though.
02:31
< Vornicus>
Well that's to be expected.
02:43 dmlandrum [dmlandrum__@Nightstar-15b281e2.sfldmi.ameritech.net] has joined #code
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16:04 * gnolam arrrrrrrghs.
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16:07
< gnolam>
I just came home from a 4 hour lab. At least 2 of those 4 hours were spent on completely unnecessary lab framework-related issues. :P
16:11
< gnolam>
The worst of which was in the final assigment, where in the seemingly identical code (except for added bones and changed bone weights) 1) the global skeleton structure /that was actually animating/ had been spun off to a separate variable, without noting this anywhere and 2) the numbskull who coded it had also changed the bones to use /absolute/ transformations, flying in the face of all convention everywhere.
16:21 Derakon[work] [Derakon@Nightstar-d44d635e.ucsf.edu] has joined #code
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17:33 * Derakon[work] is now passing 8 of 9 test images with his alignment program..
17:36
< Derakon[work]>
And my problem with the last one is that I'm somehow just not getting very good triangles.
17:36
< Derakon[work]>
Best I can find is one where the triangles' angles differ by a total of .42 radians.
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18:54 Finale [c0cb88fe@Nightstar-14e5d099.mibbit.com] has joined #code
19:40 * Derakon[work] swears quietly at Python's permissive scoping.
19:40
<@jerith>
What's the problem?
19:41
< Derakon[work]>
If I were to change one thing about Python, it'd be making it faster. Two things, though, and it'd be making variables declared inside a control block go out of scope when the block is completed.
19:41
<@jerith>
That's one of the things that annoys me about Java.
19:42
<@jerith>
Python lets me do this:
19:42
<@jerith>
try:
19:42
<@jerith>
 foo = something_that_can_raise()
19:42
<@jerith>
except Exception, e:
19:42
<@jerith>
 log(e)
19:42
<@jerith>
 raise
19:42
<@jerith>
dosomethingwith(foo)
19:43
< Derakon[work]>
Whereas with every other imperative language I've worked with, you have to declare foo before the try statement.
19:43
<@jerith>
Or, about as often:
19:43
<@jerith>
if cond:
19:43
<@jerith>
 foo = thing
19:43
<@jerith>
else:
19:43
<@jerith>
 foo = otherthing
19:43
<@jerith>
use(foo)
19:44
< Derakon[work]>
This stuff doesn't trip me up often, but when it does it makes subtle bugs that would have easily been caught by an access violation in other languages.
19:44
<@jerith>
It lets you shoot yourself in the foot, but no worse than if you declared it null or something.
19:46
< Finale>
wait, that looks like it only use(foo) if the else trips - I don't see an end. but I dunno, Python may only allow one statement per if/else branch. does it?
19:46
<@jerith>
Python blocks are indentation-based.
19:46
< Derakon[work]>
Python works by examining indentation levels, Finale.
19:46
< Derakon[work]>
It's whitespace-sensitive.
19:46
< Finale>
huh.
19:46
< Finale>
interesting. O_o
19:47
< Finale>
too bad irc doesn't allow leading whitespace. :P
19:47
< Derakon[work]>
...
19:47
< Finale>
unless you harden it with a code.
19:47
< Derakon[work]>
Your client sucks. Get a different one.
19:47
<@jerith>
(Explicitly whitespace-sensitive, as opposed to a bunch of other languages that have undocumented and decidedly weird sematic whitespace.)
19:47
< Finale>
most clients don't allow leading whitespace in irc.
19:47
< Finale>
well, most that I've seen.
19:47
<@jerith>
Yeah, must be your client. All the ones I've used recently allow it.
19:47
< Namegduf>
 Test.
19:48
< Finale>
pastebin is good, though.
19:48
< Derakon[work]>
I don't know what hole you're talking out of, but it is not a knoweldgeable one.
19:48
< Namegduf>
irssi is fine with it.
19:48
<@jerith>
He's on from mibbit, though.
19:48
< Namegduf>
Oh, ew, Mibbit.
19:48
< Finale>
same in mirc and trillian and java and cgi::irc
19:48
<@jerith>
So he's going via HTML, which eats whitespace.
19:48
< Finale>
hey, mibbit and cgi::irc are the only ones that let me on from school.
19:48
< Finale>
port blocking ftl.
19:49
<@jerith>
I quite like mibbit, actually.
19:49
< Namegduf>
ssh + CLI client?
19:49
<@jerith>
Assuming that I cant get an ssh connection.
19:49
< Finale>
nowhere to ssh to.
19:49
< Namegduf>
You don't have a computer at home?
19:49
< Finale>
and I dunno any CLI clients.
19:49
< ToxicFrog>
jerith: you should always be able to get an ssh client - just have your sshd listen on 80 or 443
19:49
< Finale>
I do - it's a winbox.
19:49
< Finale>
I need a new PC so I can make my old one a penguin server.
19:50
< ToxicFrog>
Finale: Cygwin comes with an ssh server, if you don't mind exposing a windows hosted ssh daemon to the internet.
19:50
< Finale>
I do mind.
19:50
< ToxicFrog>
Yeah, so would I.
19:50
< ToxicFrog>
As for command line clients, irssi is ok, or once you have a linux server you can skip that entirely and run your graphical client of choice under XN.
19:50
< ToxicFrog>
*NX.
19:51
<@jerith>
ToxicFrog: Port 80 is unusable. Telkom routes it all through an http proxy.
19:51
< Finale>
lemme test something.
19:52
< ToxicFrog>
jerith: ew.
19:52
< ToxicFrog>
https?
19:52
< Finale>
_ _
19:52
<@jerith>
But in that situation I'm usually a guest on a Windows machine that doesn't have an ssh client.
19:52
< ToxicFrog>
 Works in xchat.
19:52
< Finale>
hm. not an invisible code.
19:52
< Finale>
can't toss in invisible ctrl-codes in mibbit.
19:52
< ToxicFrog>
jerith: I carry around a USB key with nxclient and putty on it.
19:52
< Finale>
so can't force leading whitespace.
19:53
< Finale>
but I can in mirc.
19:53
< Finale>
*shrugs*
19:53
<@jerith>
ToxicFrog: I pay a dollar a month for an extra IP on manticore because the guys I share it with needed ssh on 443 at one point.
19:54
<@jerith>
My USB stick has my (encrypted) ssh key on it, but I never got around to dropping putty on there.
19:54
< Finale>
you should. :P
19:56
<@jerith>
Finale: If I needed to use a Windows machine with any regularity, I would.
19:57
< Finale>
:P
19:57
< Finale>
I'd do it even for an occasional use.
19:58
<@jerith>
I've used mibbit three times, one of which was testing that it worked. :-)
19:59
<@jerith>
Usually I have a laptop or something that I can use.
20:00
< Finale>
I need a lappy. ;_;
20:00
< Finale>
free wifi here at school. and the lounge is open 24/7. :P
20:00
<@jerith>
Yay free wifi.
20:01
<@jerith>
I can heartily recommend an Acer Aspire One netbook, if the price is reasonable. (And you don't have to do much Real Work on it.)
20:01
< Finale>
I don't have a job atm >_<
20:01
< Finale>
and I do need something more than a netbook.
20:02
<@jerith>
Bought one on impulse and use it almost as much as the MBP when I'm out.
20:02
< Finale>
I wanna be able to play MMOs. -_-
20:02
<@jerith>
Cost me the local equivalent of about US$250.
20:03
< Finale>
yeah, netbooks are cheap.
20:03
< Finale>
AT&T is offering one for like free with broadband subscription.
20:06 Finale is now known as Nathia
20:55 kazrikna [kazrikna@Nightstar-55f6a2b4.xen.prgmr.com] has joined #code
21:08 kazrikna is now known as KazWork
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21:17 mode/#code [+o ToxicFrog] by Reiver
22:49
< Tarinaky>
:| Does anyone know where I can find some help getting to grips with Finite Automata?
22:49
< Tarinaky>
Specifically coding acceptors using them.
22:54
< McMartin>
There's a lot of ways to do it.
22:54
< McMartin>
Finite automata are a strategy.
22:54
< McMartin>
Hmmm.
22:55
< McMartin>
If you can scare up any copy of the Dragon Book it covers them, but most theory of computation texts will also cover it
22:55
< McMartin>
Acceptors for regexes are basically what Finite Automata/Finite State Machines do.
22:56
< Tarinaky>
I have an old edition of the Dragon Book already.
22:56
< Tarinaky>
I'm having trouble with that book :|
22:57
< McMartin>
The text I learned automata theory from was Sipser's "Introduction to the Theory of Computation"
22:57 * Nathia needs that book. >_>
22:57
< McMartin>
Also, old = Green Dragon or old = Red Dragon?
22:57
< Nathia>
Dragon Book that is.
22:57
< Nathia>
any and all. >_>
22:58
< Tarinaky>
Red I think.
22:58
< Tarinaky>
The cover's pretty faded and drained of colour.
22:59
< Tarinaky>
The Library stamps go back as 1998 at any rate.
22:59
< Tarinaky>
*as far as
22:59
< Nathia>
that's not old.
23:00
< Nathia>
you're just spoiled.
23:00
< Nathia>
:P
23:00
< Nathia>
(sorry)
23:00
< Tarinaky>
Okay. It's not the cover I expected it to have when I looked at it on Amazon.
23:00
< Tarinaky>
So I assumed it was an older edition.
23:00 * Tarinaky shrugs.
23:01
< Tarinaky>
Point remains. I don't quite get how to code an acceptor from just reading this book alone. :|
23:02
< Derakon[work]>
From what little I read on Wikipedia, an acceptor basically just says "Is this input appropriate for the current state?"
23:02
< Derakon[work]>
If it isn't, then it's rejected and the program waits for appropriate input to turn up. Otherwise it's accepted, and a state transition possibly occurs.
23:02
< Derakon[work]>
I could be wrong, though; it's not a term I'm familiar with.
23:04
< Tarinaky>
That sounds about right from what I -think- I understand. Except if it isn't it assumes it's some other kind of token and tries again with a different table.
23:04
< Tarinaky>
But bare in mind I'm asking for help because I don't understand >.<
23:13
< Tarinaky>
I guess if I should also ask, what's the significance of the modulus operator when discussing the time an algorithm takes? "E.g. takes time proportional to |N|x|x| where N is the number of states... and x is the length of x."
23:14
< Tarinaky>
I assume it's not the magnitude since I can't imagine that being very meaningful.
23:15
< Derakon[work]>
Er, I don't see a modulus operator there?
23:15
< Derakon[work]>
Algorithm time is generally written in big-O notation, e.g. O(n^2) or O(m*n).
23:15
< Derakon[work]>
Big-O represents the worst-case situation.
23:16
< Tarinaky>
Gah, not modulus operator >.< Sorry. My mind is completely fucked.
23:16
< Derakon[work]>
Nae worries.
23:16
< gnolam>
Modulus operator is correct. Modulus == absolute value.
23:16
< gnolam>
(And that's why you should always use the latter, to avoid confusion with /modulo/)
23:16
< Tarinaky>
The modulus/absolute value.
23:17
< Tarinaky>
Yeah.
23:18
< Tarinaky>
Why is it significant for it to be the absolute value of N... How do you have a negative number of states?
23:18
< Tarinaky>
:|
23:29
< McMartin>
|N| is cardinality
23:29
< McMartin>
N is the set of nodes, |N| is the number of nodes
23:30
< McMartin>
Derakon: Given Tarinaky's project, an FSM acceptor is "here is a string, is that string accepted by this automaton", which means "does this string match this regex"
23:30
< McMartin>
Setting up such an FSM automatically is what flex et al are for
23:30
< McMartin>
Upon accepting, it runs the action for that token
23:31
< Tarinaky>
Yeah. Sounds about right.
23:32 * Tarinaky also doesn't even know where to start with 'Tompson's construction' :|
23:38 * ToxicFrog upreads
23:38
<@ToxicFrog>
The Dragon Book is very thourough, but also very heavy.
23:39
<@ToxicFrog>
I do have a copy of Sipser's Intro to the Theory of Computation in djvu format.
23:40
< Tarinaky>
Can I have a copy? >.>
23:40
<@ToxicFrog>
slocating it now.
23:40
<@ToxicFrog>
It was the text for my computation & language theory course, IIRC
23:40
< Tarinaky>
Thanks.
23:41
<@ToxicFrog>
Which was the prequel to Compilers, which used the Dragon Book
23:44
<@ToxicFrog>
Catch.
23:46
< Tarinaky>
DCC doesn't appear to want to cooperate. I'm receiving no offers.
23:47 * Derakon[work] eyes his aligner program.
23:47
< Derakon[work]>
I'm having it draw the triangles it's generating.
23:47
< Derakon[work]>
In red, the triangle on the first image. In green, the triangle on the second. In blue, the second triangle, transformed to match the first.
23:48
< Derakon[work]>
What I'm wondering is, why can I see any red?
23:48
< Derakon[work]>
The blue triangle should totally cover the red one.
23:48
< Derakon[work]>
But there's a slight overlap.
23:50
< McMartin>
Aliasing?
23:51
< Derakon[work]>
Not that slight, I would think.
23:51
< Derakon[work]>
I'm not casting to ints until the end of the program.
23:53
< Derakon[work]>
For example: http://derakon.dyndns.org/~chriswei/temp2/triangles.png
23:53
< Derakon[work]>
It looks like my rotation is imprecise somehow...
23:55
<@ToxicFrog>
Tarinaky: not getting any offers, or you are but they time out?
23:56
< Tarinaky>
Not getting any offers.
23:56
< Tarinaky>
I'm not seeing anything.
23:56
<@ToxicFrog>
Weird
23:57
< Tarinaky>
Yay for dodgy NAT settings.
23:57
<@ToxicFrog>
It's not NAT. This part happens entirely through the IRC server.
23:58
< Tarinaky>
Oh. I don't know anything about CTCP tbh.
23:58
< Tarinaky>
I never read that bit.
23:58
<@ToxicFrog>
Do you see this one?
23:58
< Tarinaky>
Nope.
23:58
<@ToxicFrog>
Window->File Transfers.
23:58
<@ToxicFrog>
Anything there?
23:58
< Tarinaky>
Empty.
23:59
<@ToxicFrog>
Bollocks.
23:59
<@ToxicFrog>
/dcc
23:59
<@ToxicFrog>
Any output?
23:59
< Tarinaky>
 Type To/From Status Size Pos File
23:59
< Tarinaky>
 No active DCCs
23:59 * Tarinaky didn't know about that command.
--- Log closed Thu Sep 17 00:00:09 2009
code logs -> 2009 -> Wed, 16 Sep 2009< code.20090915.log - code.20090917.log >
 search of the:   for: