| --- Log opened Sat Apr 28 00:00:03 2007 |
| 00:30 | | Janus [~Cerulean@Nightstar-10302.columbus.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Jouets de Dieu, jouets de jouets, les jouets de me, na?tre Clair enfant voire.] |
| 00:37 | | AnnoDomini is now known as Shell |
| 00:58 | | Takyoji [~Takyoji@Nightstar-25812.dhcp.roch.mn.charter.com] has joined #code |
| 00:58 | | Takyoji [~Takyoji@Nightstar-25812.dhcp.roch.mn.charter.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] |
| 01:03 | | Takyoji [~Takyoji@Nightstar-25812.dhcp.roch.mn.charter.com] has joined #code |
| 01:03 | < Takyoji> | What would be some good ideas for planning and managing the development of a large program? |
| 01:04 | < Takyoji> | Server-side and client-side |
| 01:04 | <@McMartin> | First, Know Your Protocol. |
| 01:04 | <@ToxicFrog> | At minimum - version control, bug tracking and some kind of coordination system (either physical, such as a meeting room with whiteboards, or digital, such as a wiki) |
| 01:05 | <@McMartin> | A decent specification -- at least at the module level -- is also pretty important. |
| 01:05 | <@McMartin> | Though that's at the planning level. |
| 01:05 | <@McMartin> | Class level is probably too low-level, but might not be depending on problem domain |
| 01:05 | <@McMartin> | I leave management aspects to people actually In THe Field, as per the Frog. |
| 01:06 | < Takyoji> | We've got most of the SQL table structure completed, and some features written down |
| 01:06 | <@McMartin> | Table format is middle-level, falls under "know your protocol" |
| 01:06 | < Takyoji> | So start with the most core part of the app, then build onto it with other features? |
| 01:07 | <@McMartin> | If this is intended to be long-running and long-developed, I'd highly recommend an additional layer between you and the database in case requirements change. |
| 01:07 | <@McMartin> | That way you only have to rewrite the stuff below that layer. |
| 01:07 | < Takyoji> | So basically what classes there will be, what type of interactions will occur between those classes, and so on. Correct? |
| 01:08 | < Takyoji> | Encapsulation you mean? |
| 01:08 | <@McMartin> | Well, first you'd better make sure you've got the "Database is here, client is here and only cares about X, Y, and Z, server is over here and needs to handle A B C requests" kind of thing |
| 01:08 | <@McMartin> | Encapsulation is part of it, but it's more important at the very top level than it is to demand that, say, each concept gets its own class. |
| 01:08 | | * McMartin resists reckless reification! |
| 01:09 | | * McMartin is also not a proper OO cultist. |
| 01:09 | | * ToxicFrog snrks at the .nfo for this no-CD patch, in which HaTRED explains - using annotated disassemblies - why their crack is Inherently Superior |
| 01:10 | <@McMartin> | What is it Inherently Superior to in this case? |
| 01:10 | <@Vornicus-Latens> | ...annotated disassemblies. |
| 01:11 | <@ToxicFrog> | Because rather than masking out function calls (in, I note, a crude and unsafe manner) it keeps them intact and alters parts of the functions, which is good, because the function in question is /not/ entirely copy protection and stopping it from being called causes Bad Things to happen. |
| 01:12 | <@ToxicFrog> | I'm now tempted to torrent their release of it, because the NFO for the crack tells you to refer to the NFO for the game itself for more details. |
| 01:14 | | Vornicus-Latens is now known as Vornicus |
| 01:16 | <@ToxicFrog> | http://nforce.nl/index.php?switchto=nfos&menu=quicknav&item=viewnfo&id=112519 |
| 01:17 | < Takyoji> | Any want one of my old Quantum harddrives? |
| 01:17 | < Takyoji> | I'm selling one for a few hundred on eBay.. |
| 01:17 | <@ToxicFrog> | What interface, how large, how fast? |
| 01:17 | < Takyoji> | 2 TB, |
| 01:18 | < Takyoji> | I'd have to check on the other specs |
| 01:18 | <@ToxicFrog> | ...you don't know off the top of your head whether it's SCSI, PATA or SATA? |
| 01:19 | < Takyoji> | Are ya just playing along or don't know what a Quantum HD is? |
| 01:19 | < Takyoji> | or "will be" |
| 01:20 | | Mahal is now known as MahalShower |
| 01:20 | < Takyoji> | damnit, wrong thing.. I'll shut up now |
| 01:21 | < Takyoji> | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_computer |
| 01:22 | <@ToxicFrog> | I have a few SCSI Quantum Fireballs lying around. That does not, however, mean that I can safely assume that all Quantum drives are SCSI, nor, even if they were, does it let me magically determine what kind of SCSI and whether they expect 68-pin direct or 80-pin SCA connectors. |
| 01:22 | <@ToxicFrog> | I know what quantum computing is. However, that's not the topic at hand. |
| 01:23 | < Takyoji> | I'm just a dumbass is all |
| 01:23 | < MyCatVerbs> | Takyoji: can't you just, y'know, look at the connectors? Compare them to photographs of other connector types? |
| 01:23 | < Takyoji> | I should read before I joke.. |
| 01:23 | <@ToxicFrog> | (I also have to assume you mean it's either a 2TB disk array or a very old 2GB disk, since as far as I know Quantum doesn't manufacture 2TB drives even today) |
| 01:24 | < Takyoji> | I don't have a quatum HD |
| 01:24 | < Takyoji> | quantum* |
| 01:26 | < Takyoji> | Anyway, as for the planning. Does nobody yet know of a whiteboard software for modification by multiple users at once? |
| 01:28 | <@McMartin> | Not offhand, no. |
| 01:29 | < Takyoji> | The project I am working on developing with a 2 person collaboration is basically a freeware gradesheet/attendance software |
| 01:29 | < Takyoji> | For schools |
| 01:30 | <@ToxicFrog> | Ask Vornicus or Reiver. |
| 01:30 | <@ToxicFrog> | They've been using a Flash-based one that I can't remember the name of offhand. |
| 01:30 | <@Vornicus> | GE has a free whiteboard thing out there but it blows |
| 01:30 | <@ToxicFrog> | (or abuse SDL to write one of your own~) |
| 01:30 | < Takyoji> | SDL as in? http://www.libsdl.org/ |
| 01:31 | <@Vornicus> | (no eraser, for one thing, and you can't save the drawing, and you only get a limited amount of drawing, and it makes some nasty graphical glitches sometimes) |
| 01:31 | < Takyoji> | ahh |
| 01:31 | <@ToxicFrog> | Yes, that SDL |
| 01:32 | | * ToxicFrog has occasionally toyed with making whiteboard software using SDL and SDL_net |
| 01:32 | < Takyoji> | now I found something: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_collaborative_software |
| 01:32 | < Takyoji> | or at least a list |
| 01:36 | < Takyoji> | Has anyone used Film GIMP before? |
| 01:36 | <@ToxicFrog> | ...Film GIMP? |
| 01:37 | <@ToxicFrog> | Like the GIMP, but for video files? |
| 01:37 | | Thaqui [~Thaqui@Nightstar-17830.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #code |
| 01:37 | | mode/#code [+o Thaqui] by ChanServ |
| 01:37 | < Takyoji> | Yes, it's a video editor made from GIMP |
| 01:53 | < MyCatVerbs> | A thought strikes me. It is not a clever one, really, but it might suffice to spark an interesting conversation. |
| 01:54 | < MyCatVerbs> | It occurs to me that perhaps the set of awesome videogames is similar or perhaps identical to the set of games containing vorpal blades. |
| 01:54 | | MahalShower is now known as Mahal |
| 01:54 | < MyCatVerbs> | For instance, Deus Ex. UT99 with the chainsaws (you can swing 'em to behead people). |
| 01:54 | <@Vornicus> | Not hardly |
| 01:55 | < MyCatVerbs> | How else, after all, would one be expected to successfully battle against manxome foes? |
| 01:56 | < MyCatVerbs> | ...I'm having difficulty coming up with more examples. Er, Starcraft, if you include the Zealots? |
| 01:56 | < MyCatVerbs> | Nethack! Nethack, of course. |
| 01:57 | < MyCatVerbs> | But then, there are also horribly sucky games which include vorpal blades, such as Diablo [12]. So I am left in doubt. |
| 02:00 | | gnolam [lenin@Nightstar-13557.8.5.253.se.wasadata.net] has quit [Quit: Z?] |
| 02:04 | | McMartin [~mcmartin@Nightstar-6038.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping Timeout] |
| 02:06 | | Shell is now known as AnnoDomini |
| 02:10 | | Forjeh [~Forj@Nightstar-2310.ue.woosh.co.nz] has joined #code |
| 02:17 | <@ToxicFrog> | Neither Diablo game includes vorpal blades. |
| 02:17 | <@ToxicFrog> | Nor does DX or UT99. |
| 02:18 | <@ToxicFrog> | Nethack does, especially if you're a neutral and get crowned. |
| 02:18 | | McMartin [~mcmartin@Nightstar-6038.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #code |
| 02:18 | | mode/#code [+o McMartin] by ChanServ |
| 02:18 | <@ToxicFrog> | At any rate, I refute your assertion thus: Marathon has no melee weapons other than fists; Marathon is awesome. |
| 02:29 | | Serah [~Z@87.72.36.ns-26407] has joined #Code |
| 02:29 | | mode/#code [+o Serah] by ChanServ |
| 02:30 | < MyCatVerbs> | Takyoji: ...? |
| 02:30 | < MyCatVerbs> | Er, ToxicFrog: ...? |
| 02:30 | < Takyoji> | hmm? |
| 02:30 | < Takyoji> | oh.. Tab-hotkey thing.. |
| 02:30 | < MyCatVerbs> | Takyoji: sorry, collateral damage from tab-completion. |
| 02:30 | < Takyoji> | yea, that's what I had assumed |
| 02:31 | < Takyoji> | Damn, it takes FOREVER to install phpGroupWare |
| 02:31 | < MyCatVerbs> | ToxicFrog: UT99 had the chainsaws, which could be used as vorpal blades in altfire mode, to behead opponents. |
| 02:31 | < MyCatVerbs> | ToxicFrog: and DX lacking a vorpal sword? Dude, Dragon's Tooth! Hell, it's more powerful by a long shot than most other games' vorpal swords. |
| 02:32 | <@Serah> | I find the term Vorpal greatly entertaining. |
| 02:32 | <@Serah> | And I must say it's likely Carrol's greatest legacy. |
| 02:33 | < MyCatVerbs> | ToxicFrog: also, I'm fairly certain D2 and probably D1 also had some crazy enchantment keyword which caused a weapon to become pseudo-vorpal if so blessed. Though I'm not -entirely- sure on that point, to tell the truth. |
| 02:33 | < MyCatVerbs> | And, dammit, it wasn't an assertion, it was a postulation. :( |
| 02:34 | < MyCatVerbs> | Serah: hee. I usually denote Carroll's greatest legacy as, "everything Carroll wrote, ever." ^^ |
| 02:34 | <@Serah> | :p |
| 02:34 | < MyCatVerbs> | I know that vorpal is a pretty high-firepower term, but then it has such competition. Manxome, for instance. Momewraths. And those are just from the same poem. |
| 02:34 | <@ToxicFrog> | MyCatVerbs: to me, "vorpal" means "beheads" |
| 02:35 | <@ToxicFrog> | The DT does not behead, it just does assloads of damage. |
| 02:35 | <@ToxicFrog> | The chainsaws behead, but they aren't vorpal, they're chainsaws. |
| 02:35 | < MyCatVerbs> | ToxicFrog: the Dragon's Tooth *would've* if the game engine could've been reasonably hacked to achieve that effect. |
| 02:35 | <@ToxicFrog> | Diablo - and I have played an assload of both games - has no such enchantment affix. |
| 02:36 | < MyCatVerbs> | Serah: I mean, Alice has things like Tweedle(dum|dee)'s, "When I use a word, it means precisely what I wish it to mean, no more and no less," speech, too. |
| 02:36 | <@McMartin> | That was Humpty Dumpty. |
| 02:36 | < MyCatVerbs> | McMartin: ah yes, thank you very much. |
| 02:37 | < MyCatVerbs> | Was thinking, "round," rather than, "egg." My bad. |
| 02:37 | <@Serah> | :p |
| 02:37 | <@McMartin> | And if you're going for awesome Jabberwocky Words, I think you're going to have to give the prize "chortle". |
| 02:37 | <@McMartin> | Which wasn't a word before that poem was written, and is now. |
| 02:37 | <@Vornicus> | in GTA:VC, headshots sometimes behead |
| 02:37 | < MyCatVerbs> | ToxicFrog: then, uh, that's actually evidence in favour of my hypothesis, since I did name D[12] as examples of games which I thought might have vorpal weapons but sucket anyway. |
| 02:37 | <@Serah> | Bandersnatch is nice too. |
| 02:38 | <@McMartin> | Yes, but you can use "chortle" in casual conversation and not raise eyebrows. |
| 02:38 | < MyCatVerbs> | McMartin: really? Nice! |
| 02:38 | <@McMartin> | "Frumious", less so. |
| 02:38 | < MyCatVerbs> | Serah: motion seconded. |
| 02:38 | <@ToxicFrog> | MyCatVerbs: it would be if your hypothesis weren't trivially disprovable. |
| 02:38 | <@McMartin> | IIRC "galumph" made it into the OED, but I don't think it counts. |
| 02:38 | <@Vornicus> | "galumph" is a word I use once in a while. |
| 02:39 | <@ToxicFrog> | Marathon, Pathways into Darkness, Betrayal at Krondor, System Shock, Thief, Strike Force Centauri and X-COM are all awesome, and none of them have vorpal weapons. |
| 02:39 | < MyCatVerbs> | ToxicFrog: okay, what about the weaker form of the same hypothesis - that the sets are merely similar, rather than identical? |
| 02:39 | < MyCatVerbs> | Er, XComA had a plasma sword in it. |
| 02:39 | <@ToxicFrog> | (1) plasma is not a synonym for vorpal (2) UFO didn't |
| 02:40 | <@ToxicFrog> | And X-COM:A isn't awesome anyways. |
| 02:40 | <@ToxicFrog> | It is, in fact, Fucking Broken. |
| 02:40 | < MyCatVerbs> | Objection! |
| 02:41 | < MyCatVerbs> | XComA allowed you to annihilate random chunks of scenery with nuclear explosives and sputter-cannons. |
| 02:41 | < MyCatVerbs> | Put into real-time mode, the tactical simulation also allowed you to do silly things like dual-wield Disruptors on autofire, for hilariously inaccurate but enormous firepower. |
| 02:42 | <@ToxicFrog> | If you could get around the goddamn unplayable battlescape long enough to get nuclear explosives, yes. |
| 02:42 | < MyCatVerbs> | ? I for one managed just fine. What issues did you have? |
| 02:42 | <@McMartin> | Also, you got billed for nuking scenery. |
| 02:43 | < MyCatVerbs> | I don't remember Apoc having any particularly strong interface breakage compared to UFO Defence. |
| 02:43 | <@McMartin> | Um |
| 02:43 | <@McMartin> | Turn-based was unplayable. |
| 02:43 | <@ToxicFrog> | Well, in turn-based mode the game is flat-out unplayable. |
| 02:43 | <@McMartin> | Because Brainsucker cannons launch their ammo with full TUs and they get to move before anyone gets a reaction shot. |
| 02:43 | < MyCatVerbs> | McMartin: well, you got dinged points, which could be easily made up at a thousands-to-one ratio by actually doing your job and nuking aliens. |
| 02:43 | <@McMartin> | This turns them into one-shot ranged homing Chryssalidization weapons, and everyone has them. |
| 02:43 | <@ToxicFrog> | In real-time mode, it's playable only if you're good at microing up to 24 units in real time who may be in wildly divergent locations, because if you leave them alone they die instantly. |
| 02:44 | < MyCatVerbs> | Ahhhh. |
| 02:44 | <@ToxicFrog> | And if they don't die, they fire at the wrong target, waste all their ammo, and then die. |
| 02:44 | < MyCatVerbs> | Okay, well, firstly I managed quite happily with rather more modest quotas of agents. Like, fielding six to eight. |
| 02:44 | <@ToxicFrog> | Or, in one memorable case, reload with incendiary rounds and set themselves on fire. |
| 02:44 | <@McMartin> | Still more accurate than TFTD troopers! |
| 02:45 | <@ToxicFrog> | On the contrary, I have had far greater success with TFTD n00bs. |
| 02:45 | < MyCatVerbs> | This effect achieved by playing exclusively in realtime mode (it was more fun anyway for the sake of dual-wielded firearms) |
| 02:46 | < MyCatVerbs> | Oh and repeatedly raiding cult buildings for psyclone, causing all my budget to become effectively infinite and my agents all crack-shots. |
| 02:46 | < MyCatVerbs> | Er, well, practically unlimited, anyway. |
| 02:47 | <@ToxicFrog> | Even if you grant that realtime mode is playable - which I'm not willing to concede - it is Not X-COM. |
| 02:47 | < MyCatVerbs> | Ehh. |
| 02:47 | < MyCatVerbs> | You still have the important elements. Which aren't the turn-based mechanics. |
| 02:48 | <@ToxicFrog> | I'm sorry, last time I checked, "all your units run autonomously into the enemy and die horribly without user intervention" wasn't an important element of X-COM. |
| 02:48 | < MyCatVerbs> | Rather, the research, development and economics were all there. |
| 02:48 | <@McMartin> | My guys were smarter than that in Apoc. |
| 02:48 | <@McMartin> | Economics were totally different in Apoc. |
| 02:48 | <@ToxicFrog> | The turn-based mechanics are vital unless you can do real-time that gives you the same degree of control. |
| 02:48 | <@ToxicFrog> | Which is not the case. |
| 02:48 | < MyCatVerbs> | ToxicFrog: ...I've never seen anything of the sort occur in Apoc. |
| 02:48 | < MyCatVerbs> | Er, you do realise you can pause the real-time, right? |
| 02:48 | <@ToxicFrog> | Well, ok, they didn't run autonomously. |
| 02:49 | <@ToxicFrog> | They just kind of stood there. |
| 02:49 | <@ToxicFrog> | And died. |
| 02:49 | < MyCatVerbs> | Lawls. Funny thing, mine never did. |
| 02:49 | <@ToxicFrog> | And, yeah, you can pause, but thing there is, you have two options - |
| 02:49 | < MyCatVerbs> | Because I smacked the space bar, took a half-decent look at the situation and told them to move. Like I would've had to even if it were in turn-based mode. |
| 02:49 | <@ToxicFrog> | - pause every second and issue new orders. It's like turn-based, except it sucks! |
| 02:50 | < MyCatVerbs> | Except it doesn't. |
| 02:50 | <@ToxicFrog> | - pause when something happens and issue new orders. Except that if whatever happens isn't on screen, because say you're managing two squads, you'll find out about it 5-10 seconds after it happens, by which time the squad it happened to is worm food |
| 02:50 | < MyCatVerbs> | Or you could, y'know, pause every time you need to issue orders. |
| 02:51 | <@McMartin> | That still doesn't let you handle multiple squads. |
| 02:51 | <@ToxicFrog> | What McM said. |
| 02:51 | < MyCatVerbs> | That issue is intrinsic to real-time tactical games. All of them. |
| 02:51 | <@McMartin> | Which X-COM isn't. |
| 02:51 | <@ToxicFrog> | With turn-based, I give all my guys orders, they execute them. Next turn, I give them new orders. |
| 02:51 | <@McMartin> | And yeah, my X-COM tactics did tend to involve at least three squads, and up to six for terror sites. |
| 02:51 | <@ToxicFrog> | With real time, I have to constantly poll each squad to see if they're done their current orders so that I can give them new ones, or to see if situation has changed so that their old orders are no longer valid. |
| 02:51 | < MyCatVerbs> | McMartin: I still contend that the important parts of X-Com are not the combat mechanics, they're the advancement mechanisms. |
| 02:52 | <@ToxicFrog> | And considering how quickly things can go pear shaped, "constantly" means "at least once per second" |
| 02:52 | < MyCatVerbs> | Giving the player the ability to name individual soldiers and oversee their career development causes them to develop irrational attachment to individual soldiers, which is what made the original game awesome. |
| 02:53 | <@ToxicFrog> | The ability to name your soldiers means dick if the game is actively painful to play. |
| 02:53 | <@McMartin> | Your style of play is also actively opposed to my entire strategy. |
| 02:53 | < MyCatVerbs> | It's a vaguely Sims-like thing, except with nuclear explosives. |
| 02:53 | <@ToxicFrog> | Likewise. |
| 02:53 | <@ToxicFrog> | Only one squad? MADNESS. |
| 02:53 | < MyCatVerbs> | Yesh, that is something I've noted. |
| 02:53 | <@McMartin> | I found Apocalypse playable but entirely unfun. |
| 02:54 | <@McMartin> | The fact that my soldiers could be one-shotted from behind even in full armor meant (a) don't get too attached to anyone, and (b) buddy system with reaction fire and sweeps. |
| 02:54 | < MyCatVerbs> | Great. Well, some of us actually tried playing the game's soldiers to their strengths, rather than deliberately to their weaknesses. |
| 02:54 | <@ToxicFrog> | My usual setup in UFO and TFTD is a skirmish line in pairs spanning the entire map, which means in effect 7 to 11 squads depending on what kind of dropship I used, coalescing into 3- or 4-man squads as enemies were located. |
| 02:54 | <@ToxicFrog> | This is something that is at best a chore and at worst impossible in Apoc. |
| 02:55 | <@McMartin> | I started in a corner and did a sweep with reaction fire, myself, which means you need fewer squads. |
| 02:55 | <@McMartin> | Buildings are cover. |
| 02:55 | <@McMartin> | How this is playing to the soldier's weaknesses, I'm not sure. |
| 02:55 | | Mahal is now known as MahalOut |
| 02:55 | < MyCatVerbs> | Oookies. My usual setup in Apoc was to spread soldiers out around the map slowly, constantly keeping all doors and lifts covered by at least one soldier. |
| 02:55 | <@ToxicFrog> | I started wherever the dropship landed. |
| 02:55 | <@McMartin> | ... I'm talking about X-COM 1 here. |
| 02:56 | <@ToxicFrog> | (WRT UFO/TFTD) |
| 02:56 | <@McMartin> | The fact that my preferred playstyle in X-COM 1 didn't work in 2 or 3 is one reason I didn't like 2 or 3. |
| 02:56 | < MyCatVerbs> | Then, as soon as enemies were sighted, pull soldiers around the map to surround them and set up fronts where I could (ideally) pour ridiculously huge quantities of fire in. |
| 02:56 | <@ToxicFrog> | ...UFO tactics work fine in TFTD, in my experience. |
| 02:56 | <@McMartin> | It didn't work in 2 because the pairs couldn't physically carry enough ammo to drop the enemies. |
| 02:56 | <@ToxicFrog> | However, they don't work at all in Apoc. |
| 02:56 | <@ToxicFrog> | Hence my earlier assertion that Apoc Is Not X-COM. |
| 02:57 | <@McMartin> | Also, reaction fire is worth precisely dick in TFTD, and I relied on it a great deal. |
| 02:57 | <@ToxicFrog> | It's X-COM style world management with a complete different and not at all fun combat mechanic swapped in. |
| 02:57 | <@McMartin> | I deny that the Apoc world is anything like UFO or TFTD, as well. |
| 02:57 | <@ToxicFrog> | I had great success with reaction fire, but I must admit that I basically skipped kinetics and went straight to sonics. |
| 02:57 | | * Serah stakes ToxicFrog. |
| 02:57 | < MyCatVerbs> | That's true. I usually set up systems whereby I would have at most one squad needing to be kept constantly mobile, putting all other squads into entrenched entrance-covering positions where they could shell the shit out of anything coming. |
| 02:57 | <@ToxicFrog> | By mission 3 everyone was carrying sonic pistols, by march everyone had sonic rifles. |
| 02:58 | <@McMartin> | In any case. It is dinner time. |
| 02:58 | <@McMartin> | TF: Reaction fire requires you to actually hit them. |
| 02:58 | <@McMartin> | It doesn't matter how powerful the weapon is if all they do with it is announce to the enemy where they are for instant extermination purposes. |
| 02:59 | < MyCatVerbs> | At any rate, it might be an idea to drop the tactical combat mechanics in order to convince me Apoc is evil, because I actually enjoyed them. |
| 02:59 | <@McMartin> | And yet, MCV, the very things you tout as strengths are why that CD got microwaved within a week for me. |
| 03:00 | < MyCatVerbs> | McMartin: hey, y'never know, perhaps we aren't actually the same person and might even enjoy different things? |
| 03:00 | <@McMartin> | No, because you're insisting that something that was, in fact, a crucial design flaw is awesome. |
| 03:00 | < MyCatVerbs> | A better avenue of attack would be, for example, the hysterically broken vehicular combat mechanics. Starting with the road vehicles, which were entirely fucking useless. |
| 03:00 | <@McMartin> | My criticism would be muted if they had disabled turn-based entirely. |
| 03:00 | < MyCatVerbs> | McMartin: yes, of course. Anything you don't enjoy is a crucial design flaw. Anything which I do is irrelevant. |
| 03:00 | <@McMartin> | Please see previous discussion of brainsucker cannons. |
| 03:01 | <@McMartin> | The behavior of brainsucker cannons under turn-based mode is completely indefensible, renders the game unplayable, and is the first thing the player sees. |
| 03:01 | < MyCatVerbs> | Jah. I can't believe they let that through myself. Did the fuckers not playtest or something? |
| 03:02 | <@McMartin> | Also, this means that it in fact pretends to offer the playstyle of its predecessors, with improvements (Why did it take three games to get "reserve TUs for ducking too"?) but you can't use it. |
| 03:02 | < MyCatVerbs> | However, I find the game fun anyway because I don't play it turn based. The real time option is more fun to me, so I use it exclusively. |
| 03:02 | <@ToxicFrog> | McMartin: TFTD had "reserve for crouch", actually. |
| 03:02 | <@McMartin> | Well, yes, because the "less fun" option involves losing immediately. |
| 03:02 | <@ToxicFrog> | And Apoc's "reserve TUs" options are, in fact, fucking broken. |
| 03:02 | <@McMartin> | So, yeah, I found the real-time mode more fun, but it still didn't beat, say, mild head injuries. |
| 03:02 | <@ToxicFrog> | For example, if you reserve TUs for snap shot, it won't let you actually make a snap shot until you unreserve them. |
| 03:02 | < MyCatVerbs> | ToxicFrog: really? Where did they ever fail for you? |
| 03:03 | < MyCatVerbs> | ... |
| 03:03 | < MyCatVerbs> | Those are reserved for reaction fire snapshots. |
| 03:03 | <@McMartin> | ... that is not remotely what I used them for. |
| 03:03 | <@ToxicFrog> | Whereas in UFO and TFTD, it won't let you do things that aren't snap shots if they would bring you below the number of TUs needed, but will still let you do a snap shot because that's what you reserved the TUs for in the first place |
| 03:03 | < MyCatVerbs> | As in, I don't think the designers had actually thought of any other use for them. |
| 03:04 | <@McMartin> | I used them for "Get as close as I can to unknowing alien, then shoot from where I am way more likely to hit." |
| 03:04 | <@McMartin> | Also, there was no reaction-crouch in TFTD, and you could reserve for that. |
| 03:04 | <@ToxicFrog> | However, this is all largely irrelevant, because as noted earlier turn-based mode in Apoc is unplayable, so the fact that individual /parts/ of turn-based mode are broken is entirely irrelevant. |
| 03:04 | <@Serah> | I rarely sustain injuries or deaths. |
| 03:04 | <@Serah> | Because me and my laser pistols goes nuts from just outside the plane. |
| 03:04 | <@Serah> | And flushing a UFO is easy with grenades. |
| 03:05 | <@McMartin> | Fifteen shots a turn isn't enough to not get plasmaed to death. |
| 03:05 | <@Serah> | Sure it is. |
| 03:05 | < MyCatVerbs> | Serah: er, they're shredding Apoc, not UFO. ¬¬ |
| 03:05 | <@McMartin> | You were clearly playing a different game than I did. |
| 03:05 | <@Serah> | And it's only 12 per person. |
| 03:05 | <@Serah> | :p |
| 03:05 | <@McMartin> | I routinely lost guys in UFO on the first step they took out of the Skyranger. |
| 03:05 | <@ToxicFrog> | Serah: guy exits skyranger, alien reaction fire, dead. |
| 03:05 | <@Serah> | HWP/Rocket. |
| 03:06 | <@McMartin> | ... no, that kills your whole squad. |
| 03:06 | < MyCatVerbs> | Ahhh. McMartin, tanks aren't actually all that expensive. |
| 03:06 | <@ToxicFrog> | Guy exits skyranger, no aliens to shoot at, on their turn alien steps into view, throws live grenade, ducks back behind cover. |
| 03:06 | <@Serah> | It's absolutely required. |
| 03:06 | <@ToxicFrog> | HWPs, I note, do not work on land in TFTD. |
| 03:06 | < MyCatVerbs> | I'm with Serah on this one. Laser rifles all round, just spam the place with autofire and keep crouching behind convenient objects. |
| 03:06 | <@McMartin> | HWPs also suck at sweeping. |
| 03:06 | <@Serah> | I rarely lose a unit in any combat. |
| 03:06 | <@Serah> | No, not rifles. |
| 03:06 | <@Serah> | Use laser pistols. |
| 03:07 | <@Serah> | Less TU cost. |
| 03:07 | <@McMartin> | Pistols don't do enough damage. |
| 03:07 | <@Serah> | They don't need to. |
| 03:07 | < MyCatVerbs> | Serah: I prefer the higher firepower. |
| 03:07 | <@McMartin> | And against Ethereals and Chrysallids you do not have time. |
| 03:07 | <@Serah> | The important part is to get your guy's aim up. |
| 03:07 | <@McMartin> | I admit they're better for training. |
| 03:07 | <@Serah> | Chrysallids are easy peasy. |
| 03:07 | <@McMartin> | Also, I like higher power because of my heavy reliance on reaction fire. |
| 03:07 | <@ToxicFrog> | Anyways. Whether you have zomg 31337 sk1llz necessary to complete UFO without taking a single loss is, again, not the point. |
| 03:07 | <@Serah> | Since I learnt how to play the game chrysalids has never been a problem. |
| 03:07 | <@Serah> | Use flares! |
| 03:08 | <@Serah> | And remember to always cover your back. |
| 03:08 | < MyCatVerbs> | Serah: not that the pistols don't rock, but my playstyle demands that rather than chasing the enemy down you instead shoot the living fuck out of the building he's hiding behind and vapourise it as well as him. ^^ |
| 03:08 | <@Serah> | Never walk around alone. |
| 03:08 | <@Serah> | I do that too. |
| 03:08 | <@McMartin> | My favorite anti-Chryssalid tactic is "carry primed grenades", actually~ |
| 03:08 | <@McMartin> | They have a tendency to drop them. |
| 03:08 | <@Serah> | Requires you to lose a guy >_> |
| 03:08 | <@McMartin> | No, no |
| 03:08 | <@Serah> | And it destroys the equipment. |
| 03:08 | < MyCatVerbs> | Serah: it's my only tactic, aside from "use the tanks as both scouts and alien bait" ;) |
| 03:08 | <@McMartin> | This is "what to do in case of Chryssalid attack". |
| 03:09 | <@Serah> | I just shoot them. |
| 03:09 | <@McMartin> | Well, yes |
| 03:09 | | * MyCatVerbs seconds that. |
| 03:09 | <@McMartin> | Except for the whole "corners" thing |
| 03:09 | <@Serah> | Shoot them. |
| 03:09 | <@McMartin> | Which is why I rely on reaction fire. |
| 03:09 | < MyCatVerbs> | McMartin: reaction fire, yo. |
| 03:09 | <@McMartin> | Which is why I don't use pistols. |
| 03:09 | <@Serah> | I don't ever corner with less than half TUs. |
| 03:09 | <@McMartin> | I refer to them cornering. |
| 03:09 | < MyCatVerbs> | Er, you get reaction fire with pistols too, McM. |
| 03:09 | <@McMartin> | Yes, but the damage per hit is way lower. |
| 03:10 | <@Serah> | Half TUs meands I have either 6 shots, or enough TUs to get back in if it's a ranged adversary. |
| 03:10 | <@McMartin> | The idea here is they walk out and get one-shotted. |
| 03:10 | <@Serah> | Then you aren't doing proper coverwork. |
| 03:10 | <@McMartin> | ... Sometimes The Dice Hate You. |
| 03:10 | < MyCatVerbs> | So? You field at least eight blokes. You'll have a lot of firepower to ice that Chrysalid with. |
| 03:10 | <@McMartin> | I field 12, generally in six groups of two. |
| 03:10 | <@Serah> | Yup. |
| 03:11 | <@Serah> | I field 8 and a HWP/Rocket. |
| 03:11 | <@McMartin> | Four of the 12 have autocannons~ |
| 03:11 | < MyCatVerbs> | I'm with Serah on this one. |
| 03:11 | <@Serah> | And Apocalypse is evener better for the spray and pray tactic. |
| 03:11 | <@ToxicFrog> | I field 14, two of whom are rear support. |
| 03:11 | < MyCatVerbs> | Ewww, autocannons. Too heavy to move and actually fire them. |
| 03:11 | <@Serah> | For one, your incendiary rounds works. |
| 03:11 | < MyCatVerbs> | Serah: heheheheheh. |
| 03:11 | <@Serah> | Secondly, stuff falls down. |
| 03:11 | <@ToxicFrog> | Ie, they sit in the dropship with blaster bombs. |
| 03:11 | < MyCatVerbs> | Serah: spray and pray my ass. |
| 03:11 | <@McMartin> | MCV: Train strength, yo. |
| 03:11 | < MyCatVerbs> | Serah: firstly, I'm an aetheist. |
| 03:11 | | * McMartin could reserve auto with ease after a couple missions. |
| 03:11 | <@Serah> | I'm not. |
| 03:12 | <@Serah> | I firmly and devoutly believes Christianity sucks. |
| 03:12 | < MyCatVerbs> | Serah: secondly, with the quantity of firepower I field, you don't need to. =D |
| 03:12 | <@Serah> | I don't use blasters. |
| 03:12 | <@Serah> | Because they make the game too easy. |
| 03:12 | <@McMartin> | See, my "perfect mission" is going into a terror site with bullet-firing rifles and cleaning them out in 6 turns with no human casualties. |
| 03:13 | <@McMartin> | Blaster Bombs are for opening holes in UFOs, and cheesing the final mission~ |
| 03:13 | <@Serah> | Kinetics isn't too hot Vs. Snakemen and Muton. |
| 03:13 | <@McMartin> | Indeed not, and by the time I face them I have plasma. |
| 03:13 | <@Serah> | Blasters means you don't need to move and can do the final mission in one turn. |
| 03:13 | < MyCatVerbs> | Snakemen open up just fine against lasers. |
| 03:13 | <@McMartin> | At the time, though, it was Floater/Reaper, since I didn't even have lasers yet. |
| 03:13 | <@Serah> | Everything opens up fine against lasers. |
| 03:13 | <@ToxicFrog> | Blasters, or rather the TFTD equivalent, are for dealing with lobstermen~ |
| 03:13 | <@McMartin> | Mutons resist. |
| 03:13 | <@Serah> | No |
| 03:14 | <@McMartin> | ISTR Ethereals do too. |
| 03:14 | <@Serah> | They're tough to kinetics. |
| 03:14 | <@Serah> | Etherals are tough to plasma and weak to kinetic. |
| 03:14 | < MyCatVerbs> | Serah: my point exactly. I normally start out by selling *all* alien artifacts except for one of each type in order to give the labs fodder later. |
| 03:14 | <@McMartin> | Cyberdiscs and the Ethereal's tanks are weak vs. lasers. |
| 03:14 | <@Serah> | Chrysalids are the most resistant to lasers. And they have the HUUGE disadvantage of being lame. |
| 03:14 | <@Serah> | MCV: Me too. |
| 03:14 | <@McMartin> | Chrysalids are weak vs. explosives. |
| 03:14 | < MyCatVerbs> | Serah: then I plow the cash back into massively overamping my R&D, so that I can field laser rifles and alien armour ASAP. |
| 03:14 | <@Serah> | ^_^ |
| 03:15 | <@McMartin> | D in particular, laser cannons are Worth More. |
| 03:15 | <@Serah> | Yup. |
| 03:15 | <@McMartin> | And completely worthless on your jets~ |
| 03:15 | <@Serah> | Cannons are the most profitable unit in the game. |
| 03:15 | < MyCatVerbs> | McMartin: yeah, but they don't have autofire so I don't care about them. |
| 03:15 | <@Serah> | Laser pistols are second. |
| 03:15 | < MyCatVerbs> | Oh, wait, you mean the jet ones, right. My bad. |
| 03:15 | < MyCatVerbs> | I thought you meant the heavy lasers. Which are worthless, blah. |
| 03:15 | <@Serah> | Yeah. |
| 03:15 | <@Serah> | They're for sniping. |
| 03:16 | <@Serah> | And are actually excellent for one thing. |
| 03:16 | <@Serah> | Training someone's STR. |
| 03:16 | <@Serah> | Being one of the heaviest pieces of equipment in the game. |
| 03:16 | | * MyCatVerbs shrugs. |
| 03:16 | <@Serah> | STR is important for grenade tossage. |
| 03:16 | <@McMartin> | I prefer autocannons for STR training, because they're actually useful weapons. |
| 03:16 | < MyCatVerbs> | I usually just carry the lighter guns. Too lazy to train in anything except shootin' accuracy. |
| 03:16 | <@Serah> | Me too. |
| 03:16 | <@Serah> | And I don't make armor. |
| 03:17 | <@Serah> | I never use it anyway. |
| 03:17 | < MyCatVerbs> | Oh, heh. |
| 03:17 | <@Serah> | I prefer not to get hit. |
| 03:17 | < MyCatVerbs> | Armour's always my first priority, actually. Though I start on the lasers first for obvious reasons. |
| 03:17 | <@Serah> | Motion scanners are priceless. |
| 03:17 | < MyCatVerbs> | Means I no longer lose agents to glancing hits. |
| 03:17 | < MyCatVerbs> | Ah yes, that too. |
| 03:17 | <@Serah> | And remember to bring a bazillion flares. |
| 03:17 | <@McMartin> | Serah: I'm still wondering how you manage to never start out being covered by aliens. |
| 03:18 | <@Serah> | Just doesn't happen too often. |
| 03:18 | < MyCatVerbs> | Serah: hee, too lazy. I usually wait until daybreak to attack most missions. |
| 03:18 | <@McMartin> | That's like every third for me. |
| 03:18 | <@Serah> | It does happen, when it does, use a smoke grenade. |
| 03:18 | <@Serah> | Smoke grenades would be very useful for you, then. |
| 03:18 | <@McMartin> | Yes |
| 03:18 | <@Serah> | Or dye if you play TFTD. |
| 03:18 | <@McMartin> | Though I often just shot something up with HE Autocannons. |
| 03:19 | <@Serah> | Not as effective. |
| 03:19 | <@McMartin> | Got the job done. |
| 03:19 | <@Serah> | Explosions remove smoke. |
| 03:19 | <@McMartin> | Also, I tended to be tolerant of casualties. |
| 03:19 | <@Serah> | Me too. |
| 03:19 | <@McMartin> | Also also, smoke inhalation is irritating. |
| 03:19 | <@Serah> | It's minor, and shouldn't impact you much. |
| 03:19 | < MyCatVerbs> | Bleh, casualties. Nevar! |
| 03:19 | <@Serah> | Medi-kits are also nice. |
| 03:19 | <@McMartin> | Need partners for that |
| 03:20 | <@Serah> | But usually if your character is bleeding you can finish the mission before he dies. |
| 03:20 | <@McMartin> | Yeah. |
| 03:20 | <@McMartin> | Smoke inhalation has caused KOs for my guys before. |
| 03:20 | <@McMartin> | Apparently there are no gasmasks in the distant past of 1999. |
| 03:20 | <@Serah> | McMartin, the important part of it is stimulants to get the morale back up after psi attack. |
| 03:20 | <@McMartin> | Heh |
| 03:20 | <@McMartin> | So, the "tolerant of casualties" went double for people with lousy psi scores~ |
| 03:21 | <@Serah> | :p |
| 03:21 | < MyCatVerbs> | Serah: I usually did alien armour at first oppourunity, plus all human artifacts up to and including laser rifles (but no heavy lasers, no use to me) before touching -any- alien artifacts. |
| 03:21 | <@McMartin> | By the end, my missions could be summarized as "UP AGAINST THE WALL, MOTHERF***ERS" |
| 03:21 | <@Serah> | Laser cannons are... |
| 03:21 | < MyCatVerbs> | Plasma cannons more so. |
| 03:21 | <@Serah> | Well, I wouldn't know hot to get 200 millions without them. |
| 03:21 | <@Serah> | No. |
| 03:22 | <@Serah> | Plasma cannons are not as profitable. |
| 03:22 | < MyCatVerbs> | I just banked alien artifacts for cash. |
| 03:22 | | * Serah shrugs. |
| 03:22 | < MyCatVerbs> | Had the engineers stick to things that were *useful*. |
| 03:22 | <@Serah> | Cash isn't useful? |
| 03:22 | < MyCatVerbs> | Er, except when I had the whole squad ridiculously overkitted and all aircraft bays full, I guess. |
| 03:22 | <@Serah> | 800 engineers on a scondary base is useful. |
| 03:22 | < MyCatVerbs> | Then I'd be producing stuff for cash, jah. |
| 03:22 | <@McMartin> | Plasma cannons are not only not as profitable, they cost Elerium. |
| 03:23 | < MyCatVerbs> | Serah: JESUS! How'd you pack that many into one base? |
| 03:23 | <@Serah> | Not sure I did. |
| 03:23 | <@Serah> | But it was a good round number. |
| 03:23 | <@Serah> | Besides, it won't be attacked if it doesn't send planes. |
| 03:23 | < MyCatVerbs> | Serah: not to mention, how'd you keep it safe from alien incursions later? |
| 03:23 | <@McMartin> | And you stick a HyperWave Decoder on it as a listening post. |
| 03:23 | <@Serah> | Well, the possebility is there, but they're have to fly directly over it. |
| 03:23 | < MyCatVerbs> | Ahhh, ookies. |
| 03:24 | <@Serah> | And if you're afraid of incursions, build 6 laser tanks. |
| 03:24 | <@Serah> | You know where they come from anyway. |
| 03:24 | <@Serah> | They come from the access list. |
| 03:24 | <@Serah> | And won't move much. |
| 03:24 | <@Serah> | You're immune to psi, and there's no penalty for blastage. |
| 03:25 | < MyCatVerbs> | I hadn't thought of that. |
| 03:25 | <@ToxicFrog> | Access lift and hangars, I am given to understand. |
| 03:25 | <@Serah> | Yup. |
| 03:25 | <@ToxicFrog> | Although I've never been invaded, so. |
| 03:25 | < MyCatVerbs> | ToxicFrog: yesh. |
| 03:25 | <@Serah> | But on an engineer base you don't need hangars :p |
| 03:25 | < MyCatVerbs> | Actually, I don't think I ever properly worked out the profitabilities for various artifacts. |
| 03:25 | <@Serah> | Just a couple of general stores, workshops and living quarters. |
| 03:25 | <@ToxicFrog> | Also, you need at least one soldier, even if you have tanks. |
| 03:25 | <@ToxicFrog> | Otherwise "the undefended base is taken without a fight" |
| 03:25 | <@Serah> | Laser cannon are the most profitable thing to build. |
| 03:25 | <@Serah> | No. |
| 03:26 | < MyCatVerbs> | I think most of my profitable capacity probably got thrown into laser tanks. |
| 03:26 | <@Serah> | Laser tanks works. |
| 03:26 | < MyCatVerbs> | Serah: just a couple of general stores? For that kind of output? |
| 03:26 | <@Serah> | They're no good for anything else than base defense. |
| 03:26 | <@McMartin> | Laser cannon, when you factor in materials and engineer time, is the most profitable commodity, yes. |
| 03:26 | <@Serah> | Doesn't matter. |
| 03:26 | <@Serah> | You have to sell it all the time anyway. |
| 03:26 | < MyCatVerbs> | McMartin: good to know. |
| 03:26 | <@Serah> | You use 180000 per unit started. |
| 03:26 | <@ToxicFrog> | Serah: no, I mean, if you have tanks and nothing else in the base, the aliens automatically win. |
| 03:26 | <@McMartin> | You make them hella fast. |
| 03:27 | < MyCatVerbs> | Serah: ahh. See, I'd be putting that base like *right next door* to my primary launching base. |
| 03:27 | <@Serah> | Yes McM. |
| 03:27 | <@ToxicFrog> | You need at least one human operative for it to actually go to the battlescape. |
| 03:27 | <@Serah> | TF: Not in Ufo defense. |
| 03:27 | < MyCatVerbs> | Serah: in order to make equipment shipments cheap and quick. |
| 03:28 | < MyCatVerbs> | Er, don't you need at least one hangar in that anyway? For building spaceships? |
| 03:28 | <@Serah> | If you prefer. |
| 03:28 | <@Serah> | But it's not necessary. |
| 03:28 | < MyCatVerbs> | Or do you keep those jobs (since they're low-volume anyway) in your launching bases? |
| 03:28 | <@Serah> | I do. |
| 03:28 | <@ToxicFrog> | Serah: this has not been my experience, nor the experience of anyone else I know who's played it. |
| 03:28 | <@Serah> | But it's a personal preference. |
| 03:29 | <@ToxicFrog> | Nor the experience of KSC: |
| 03:29 | <@ToxicFrog> | WARNING: previous versions of this guide listed that HWPs at |
| 03:29 | <@ToxicFrog> | an empty base (i.e. no soldiers) can defend. I copied this |
| 03:29 | <@ToxicFrog> | hint from _Computer Game Review_'s strategy article. I have |
| 03:29 | <@ToxicFrog> | received at least two angry statements telling me that this is |
| 03:29 | <@ToxicFrog> | NOT so. Each have lost at least TWO "undefended" bases. |
| 03:29 | <@Serah> | Oh? |
| 03:29 | | * Serah shrugs. |
| 03:29 | <@Serah> | May be a bug it was allowed then. |
| 03:29 | <@ToxicFrog> | TFTD's behaviour is the same, which is unsurprising. |
| 03:29 | <@Serah> | Exceedingly unsurprising. |
| 03:29 | <@McMartin> | There are a number of other mechanics changes that were reverted last minute or at the first patch. |
| 03:29 | < MyCatVerbs> | Objection on grounds of irrelevance. You have over a hundred engineers and eight tanks, what's two soldiers and a handful of gear for them on top of that? =D |
| 03:30 | <@McMartin> | You'll see warnings not to sell Alien Entertainment units, for example. |
| 03:30 | <@ToxicFrog> | It may depend on the game version; there's at least three (1.0, 1.2 and 1.4) |
| 03:30 | < MyCatVerbs> | McMartin: huh? |
| 03:30 | <@ToxicFrog> | Of which I've played (and seen this behaviour in) 1.2 and 1.4 |
| 03:31 | <@McMartin> | MCV: Apparently (in 1.0? in a leaked beta?) selling Alien Entertainment (ZOMG SUBLIMINALS!) would dramatically increase the chances of nations signing Pacts. |
| 03:31 | <@Serah> | Fun. |
| 03:32 | < MyCatVerbs> | McMartin: ahahahah, what, they all get stoned and fall in love with the aliens? =D |
| 03:32 | <@McMartin> | No, that's ZOMG LIBERALS. |
| 03:32 | <@McMartin> | Which I've also heard, but I recall the original justification was that the devices were in fact mind control devices. |
| 03:32 | < MyCatVerbs> | So how do you get rid of the things without selling, anyway? |
| 03:32 | <@McMartin> | You didn't. |
| 03:33 | <@ToxicFrog> | McMartin: they might just be highly addictive. |
| 03:33 | < MyCatVerbs> | But your stores would all get clogged, slowly. |
| 03:33 | <@McMartin> | You had to stockpile them deep in your Seekrit Underground Warehouses. |
| 03:33 | <@McMartin> | Yes. |
| 03:33 | <@ToxicFrog> | And the aliens offer them an unlimited supply. |
| 03:33 | < MyCatVerbs> | Ahh. |
| 03:33 | < MyCatVerbs> | Possibly not really relevant to Serah. |
| 03:33 | <@Serah> | Whut? |
| 03:33 | < MyCatVerbs> | With that kind of engineering income, you can blanket the globe and make pacts rather irrelevant. =D |
| 03:34 | <@ToxicFrog> | Until you hit the base limit. |
| 03:34 | | * ToxicFrog blinkblinks |
| 03:34 | <@McMartin> | Also, if enough nations sign Pacts, I believe you lose immediately. |
| 03:34 | <@Serah> | Yes. |
| 03:34 | <@ToxicFrog> | Do you know, offhand, if Apocalypse uses seperate programs for geoscape and battlescape like UFO does? |
| 03:34 | <@Serah> | Which is why you want people to not sign pacts. |
| 03:35 | <@Serah> | That's also incidently why you want your initial base in america. |
| 03:35 | < MyCatVerbs> | ToxicFrog: sorry, couldn't tell you. I don't have the disks on hand. |
| 03:35 | <@ToxicFrog> | ...I put it in Europe. |
| 03:35 | <@Serah> | Because for some obscure reason they contribute the most. |
| 03:35 | <@McMartin> | Europe has More Nations, though. |
| 03:35 | <@ToxicFrog> | What with europe having way more polities per square meter. |
| 03:35 | | * Serah nods. |
| 03:35 | <@McMartin> | I tend to have one in North America and one in North Africa. |
| 03:35 | <@ToxicFrog> | So the total funding is about the same, plus it means better infiltration protection. |
| 03:35 | < MyCatVerbs> | Serah: oh? I usually put it in the UK. Some patriotism, mostly because most of the high-grossing nations are in Europe. France, Germany, UK... |
| 03:36 | <@McMartin> | Traditionally my American base is wherever I am at the moment. |
| 03:36 | <@Serah> | But since they already give the most, rating increase also has the highest yield. |
| 03:36 | | * ToxicFrog generally starts in southern europe, then the next one in north america, then asia, then australia, then south america |
| 03:36 | < MyCatVerbs> | Ohhh. |
| 03:36 | <@Serah> | Before I learnt this trick I put mine in mid asia. |
| 03:36 | <@ToxicFrog> | With an R&D base at the north pole. |
| 03:36 | <@McMartin> | Just for Hilarity? |
| 03:36 | | * MyCatVerbs usually puts one around France, then later expands to North America. |
| 03:36 | <@Serah> | TF: the south pole is less visited. |
| 03:36 | <@McMartin> | But the entrance to the Hollow Earth is in the North Pole. |
| 03:37 | <@McMartin> | Right. Dinnertime. |
| 03:37 | | * McMartin waves |
| 03:37 | <@ToxicFrog> | Yes, but (1) putting it at the north pole means I can call it Santa's Workshop and (2) installing a hyperwave decoder in it means it picks up more UFOs. |
| 03:38 | <@Serah> | Hehe. |
| 03:38 | < MyCatVerbs> | McMartin: huh? I thought At the Mountains of Madness was set in the antarctic. |
| 03:38 | < MyCatVerbs> | Er, bon apetit. Enjoy yourself. |
| 03:38 | <@ToxicFrog> | Yes, but I don't think that's the same as the hollow earth. |
| 03:39 | <@Serah> | Ugh, my system's fuckt. I need a softboot. |
| 03:39 | < MyCatVerbs> | ToxicFrog: oh. What's Hollow Earth referring to then? I thought he meant the huge warm-water-filled underground chambers the shoggoths inhabited. |
| 03:39 | < MyCatVerbs> | s/then?/then, please?/ |
| 03:42 | <@Serah> | At start, America provides 815k the closest contestant is France with 595. |
| 03:42 | < MyCatVerbs> | "The basic storyline/premise is thus: In 1999 UFOs start terrorising Earth by abducting civilians, infiltrating governments, invading cities and generally being shits." <- /me <3 the internet. |
| 03:42 | <@Serah> | Hmm, they appear randomized. |
| 03:43 | <@Serah> | But my point stands, nearly twice as much as the closest. |
| 03:43 | < MyCatVerbs> | Serah: interesting. But the US is always highest, though Europe always better for the sheer quantity of paying countries. |
| 03:43 | | * Serah shrugs. |
| 03:43 | <@Serah> | Another important note is that you can reach australia with your radars in america. |
| 03:44 | <@Serah> | You can't if you're in europe. |
| 03:44 | < MyCatVerbs> | Serah: add up the UK, France and Germany contributions and and you'll get a different picture. |
| 03:44 | <@ToxicFrog> | MyCatVerbs: ask McM, but I think he actually means /hollow earth/, not just a few caverns. |
| 03:44 | <@Serah> | But they're also harder to simultaniously lose. |
| 03:44 | < MyCatVerbs> | This is true. You can't get at Japan either. |
| 03:44 | <@Serah> | I always get terror missions to melbourne. |
| 03:44 | <@Serah> | It must be alien heaven. |
| 03:44 | <@Serah> | That, or they have big signs of "Commere Aliens!" |
| 03:45 | <@Serah> | Free kangaroo steak with every 100 civvy kills? |
| 03:45 | < MyCatVerbs> | ToxicFrog: uhhh, yesh, but where on Earth is Hollow Earth from and, more specifically, where from cometh the reference to it being in the north pole? |
| 03:45 | <@Serah> | BUT! |
| 03:45 | <@Serah> | It is getting light outside. |
| 03:45 | < MyCatVerbs> | Serah: beer, surfing and hawt australian chicks. |
| 03:46 | <@Serah> | Must be that. |
| 03:46 | < MyCatVerbs> | Serah: were I a malicious many-tentacled monster, I'd damn well pick it as my first target to terrorise too. |
| 03:46 | <@Serah> | :p |
| 03:46 | <@ToxicFrog> | MyCatVerbs: I Don't Know, Ask McMartin |
| 03:47 | < MyCatVerbs> | Hey, gimme some credit here. I'm picking it over Tokyo, despite the tradition. |
| 03:48 | < MyCatVerbs> | ToxicFrog: okay, jesus. Did I kill your dog with a sharpened Intellimouse in a previous life or something? No need to snap. |
| 03:50 | < MyCatVerbs> | Also, sorry for being such an irritating cunt. |
| 03:54 | | TakyojiClone [~Takyoji@Nightstar-25812.dhcp.roch.mn.charter.com] has joined #code |
| 03:55 | | Takyoji [~Takyoji@Nightstar-25812.dhcp.roch.mn.charter.com] has quit [Ping Timeout] |
| 03:58 | | TakyojiClone [~Takyoji@Nightstar-25812.dhcp.roch.mn.charter.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] |
| 04:25 | | MahalOut is now known as Mahal |
| 04:28 | | Chalcedon [~Chalcedon@Nightstar-2310.ue.woosh.co.nz] has joined #code |
| 04:28 | | mode/#code [+o Chalcedon] by ChanServ |
| 04:29 | | * McMartin returns, reads backscroll |
| 04:29 | <@McMartin> | The Hollow Earth in question involves the so-called "Shaver Mystery", and the Dero, and possibly also Ultima Thule, depending on who you ask. |
| 04:30 | < MyCatVerbs> | Cool, thanks. |
| 04:30 | | * MyCatVerbs googles randomly. |
| 04:31 | | * McMartin also notes the awesomeness that would be X-COM vs. TIE Fighter |
| 04:31 | <@McMartin> | (Stormtroopers terrorize: Seattle) |
| 04:32 | <@McMartin> | Also X-Wing vs. Street Fighter though that's a bit... unbalanced. |
| 04:33 | < MyCatVerbs> | I for one pity those poor X-Wing pilots. |
| 04:33 | <@McMartin> | Nah, they've got shields. |
| 04:33 | <@McMartin> | Ryu could probably take a TIE fighter, but an X-Wing? |
| 04:33 | < MyCatVerbs> | Not much good against a foot of fury. |
| 04:34 | <@McMartin> | Pretty sure they stopped kinetics too, though I may be confusing them with Wing Commander. |
| 04:34 | <@McMartin> | ("You must defeat my R2's taser to stand a chance!") |
| 04:35 | < MyCatVerbs> | Heehee. Well, problem is that SF charactesr can easily go underground, rendernig the spacecraft useless - even with the heavy bombers, they'll too-rapidly run out of torpedoes. |
| 04:35 | < MyCatVerbs> | *characters |
| 04:35 | <@McMartin> | The interface would be kind of complicated. |
| 04:35 | < MyCatVerbs> | Which puts the pilots in the awkward position of having to go in on foot with their sidearms and R2 droids, at which point they're vulnerable to ambushes because they're not even remotely trained for infantry ops. |
| 04:47 | <@ToxicFrog> | X-COM vs TIE fighter would be all kinds of awesome. |
| 04:51 | < ReivZzz> | -- We could do it |
| 04:51 | | * ReivZzz hides. |
| 05:40 | < MyCatVerbs> | What I would like to see would be Apocalypse done as an FPS-with-vehicles. |
| 05:40 | < MyCatVerbs> | s/like/love/ |
| 05:40 | < MyCatVerbs> | UFO is far cooler, true, but Apoc has urban combat. |
| 05:41 | < MyCatVerbs> | And if you could make believable realtime Apoc-style nukable scenery? Just, win. |
| 05:42 | < MyCatVerbs> | I cannot imagine any in-videogame event more awesome than radioing a Valkyrie pilot to point out a building which is absolutely bloody infested with aliens, at which point the flyboy nixes it from just under a kilometer away with one of those mini tacnuke launchers. |
| 06:49 | | Takyoji [~Takyoji@Nightstar-25812.dhcp.roch.mn.charter.com] has joined #code |
| 06:51 | | Takyoji [~Takyoji@Nightstar-25812.dhcp.roch.mn.charter.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] |
| 06:58 | | Vornicus is now known as Vornicus-Latens |
| 07:47 | <@Raif> | anyone awake? |
| 07:49 | <@Raif> | I need a recommendation: Software that will rip CD audio to WAV and do some basic normalization and such. |
| 07:49 | <@Raif> | I used to use Exact Audio Copy, but it doesn't work in Vista (this OS is becoming a gigantic pain in the ass) |
| 07:50 | | Forj is now known as Forjadon |
| 08:00 | <@Raif> | God help me I installed iTunes. :( |
| 08:02 | <@Raif> | On the plus side: The interface is pretty fuckin' slick. |
| 08:03 | <@Raif> | Good thing I wanted to convert all my CD's to AAC or it would be completely useless! :) |
| 08:05 | <@Mahal> | er |
| 08:05 | <@Mahal> | itunes can convert to mp3 as well |
| 08:06 | | Forjadon is now known as ForjadonMovie |
| 08:07 | <@Raif> | Yeah, mp3 isn't what I want. |
| 08:07 | <@Raif> | For quality it's inferior, and aac is accepted on any device worth its salt. |
| 08:08 | <@Raif> | And if the latter doesn't matter, I tend to prefer ogg anyway. |
| 08:08 | <@Raif> | Of course, I intend to get a portable player in the future. |
| 08:08 | <@Raif> | :) |
| 08:10 | <@Mahal> | *nods* |
| 08:10 | <@Mahal> | I prefer aac to. |
| 08:11 | <@Mahal> | Pardon the comment, but given that I don't know you I tend to try and idiot-proof my answers ;) |
| 08:11 | | Thaqui [~Thaqui@Nightstar-17830.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit [Connection reset by peer] |
| 08:11 | <@Raif> | Oh, I totally understand. :) |
| 08:12 | <@Raif> | I often have a similar reaction to strangers. |
| 08:15 | <@Raif> | All I really care about is A) The audio has to be at least equivalent to mp3 192kbit and B) The embedded information is correct. |
| 08:16 | <@Raif> | (I really fucking hate inaccurate embedded data in my music) |
| 08:16 | | * Mahal nodnod. |
| 08:16 | <@Raif> | So, as far as I can tell with AAC I'm looking at 160kbit VBR. That about right? |
| 08:17 | <@Raif> | I'm new to the format, but I'm dumping ogg because I now care about devices. :) |
| 08:21 | <@Raif> | Y'know... |
| 08:21 | <@Raif> | I might dump winamp for this. |
| 08:21 | <@Mahal> | I like itunes, personally. |
| 08:22 | <@Mahal> | and yeah, sounds abut righrt. |
| 08:22 | | Mahal is now known as MahalAFK |
| 08:22 | <@Raif> | I always resented it because I couldn't get Quicktime without iTunes bundled... but now that I actually need the ripping software, it's not half bad. |
| 08:23 | | * MahalAFK chuckls. |
| 08:23 | <@MahalAFK> | You can get them sep[arately. |
| 08:23 | <@MahalAFK> | It's just harder to find. |
| 08:24 | <@Raif> | At the time it was easier to get QT through a third party, in this case Media Player Light |
| 08:24 | <@Raif> | s/Light/Classic/ |
| 08:24 | <@Raif> | It's everything WMP9 can do, only not annoying! :) |
| 08:42 | | ForjadonMovie [~Forj@Nightstar-2310.ue.woosh.co.nz] has quit [Quit: Leaving] |
| 08:43 | | Forjeh [~Forj@Nightstar-2310.ue.woosh.co.nz] has quit [Ping Timeout] |
| 08:43 | | ReivZzz is now known as Reiver |
| 08:48 | | MahalAFK is now known as Mahal |
| 09:06 | | Thaqui [~Thaqui@Nightstar-17830.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #code |
| 09:06 | | mode/#code [+o Thaqui] by ChanServ |
| 10:44 | | GeekSoldier_ is now known as GeekSoldier |
| 11:04 | | You're now known as TheWatcher |
| 11:24 | <@Serah> | And she said: "Let there be chat." But obviously she wasn't god. |
| 11:24 | < GeekSoldier> | or perchance she was? |
| 11:24 | < Reiver> | If she was, then every month would bring a new reign of terror apon all humanity. |
| 11:25 | < Reiver> | Especially men. |
| 11:25 | < Reiver> | :p |
| 11:27 | <@Serah> | Yes, something like that. |
| 11:28 | <@Serah> | Except I'm not confined to once a month. |
| 11:30 | <@Raif> | Indeed. |
| 11:30 | | * Raif eyes. |
| 11:31 | <@Serah> | :p |
| 11:33 | | * Serah is in relative pain, but is rather chipper. |
| 11:35 | <@Raif> | I've heard that before... right at the end of Fargo. |
| 11:36 | <@Serah> | <_< |
| 11:37 | | * Raif continues rippage of CDs. |
| 11:37 | <@Raif> | The RIAA would have snit if they knew. |
| 11:37 | <@Serah> | The RIAA has a snit even though they don't. |
| 11:38 | <@Raif> | A very snitty bunch, I suppose. |
| 11:38 | <@Serah> | Yeah. |
| 11:39 | <@Raif> | So, yeah... my mp3/ogg library was languishing at about 4 or 5 gigs. |
| 11:39 | <@Raif> | I just added another 1.5. :) |
| 11:40 | <@Serah> | :p |
| 11:40 | <@Serah> | I listen to netradio. |
| 11:40 | <@Raif> | I've never found a convenient way of doing so. |
| 11:41 | <@Serah> | Winamp + library. |
| 11:41 | <@Serah> | I suggest Winamp 2.91 |
| 11:41 | <@Raif> | As it is, I pick out artists I like when I hear them and then add them to my collection (slow process, hence small collection)\ |
| 11:41 | <@Serah> | I can send you the exe if you wish. And if your version reply is right. |
| 11:41 | <@Raif> | But we're on a wee binge of buying CD's of known-good artists that we just never got around to buying. |
| 11:42 | <@Serah> | We? |
| 11:42 | <@Raif> | My wife and I. |
| 11:42 | <@Serah> | Ah, right. |
| 11:42 | <@Serah> | I used to DJ when I was younger. |
| 11:43 | <@Serah> | So I am damaged in the aspect that I had to know what was hot, and has to listen to radio. |
| 11:43 | <@Raif> | Plus she's got a large collection of CD's (largely trashed, sadly) of stuff I haven't heard. |
| 11:43 | <@Serah> | What I like about netradio is that it's mostly the only place you can get nonpop/nonrock. |
| 11:43 | <@Raif> | Ah, no. I'm really picky with music. At least 80% of the stuff on mainstream radio irritates the fuck out of me. |
| 11:44 | <@Raif> | And the stuff that doesn't is either A) not popular enough to irritate me yet or B) old :) |
| 11:44 | <@Serah> | Yeah, me too. |
| 11:44 | <@Serah> | Hence netradio. |
| 11:45 | <@Serah> | If I wanted to listen to pop I can turn on reg. radio. |
| 11:45 | <@Raif> | I just installed iTunes, which claims to have access to net radio. I'll check it out if it's free. |
| 11:47 | <@Serah> | It should be. |
| 11:47 | <@Serah> | I don't like iTunes for Win/lin. |
| 11:47 | | * GeekSoldier listens to progulus. |
| 11:47 | <@Serah> | Too heavy sysload |
| 11:48 | <@Raif> | No, I had an initial good impression, but when your library hits 100+ songs it seems to have some severe interface performance issues. |
| 11:48 | <@Raif> | I installed it mainly because it was the only convenient way I could find to rip AAC. |
| 13:27 | | gnolam [lenin@Nightstar-13557.8.5.253.se.wasadata.net] has joined #Code |
| 13:27 | | mode/#code [+o gnolam] by ChanServ |
| 13:48 | | AnnoDomini [~farkoff@Nightstar-29302.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Quit: Some people find sanity a little confining.] |
| 13:54 | | AnnoDomini [~farkoff@Nightstar-29302.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #Code |
| 13:54 | | mode/#code [+o AnnoDomini] by ChanServ |
| 14:04 | | Thaqui [~Thaqui@Nightstar-17830.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has left #code [Leaving] |
| 14:14 | | Mahal is now known as MahalBedd |
| 14:32 | | AnnoDomini is now known as Shell |
| 15:31 | | Takyoji [~Takyoji@Nightstar-25812.dhcp.roch.mn.charter.com] has joined #code |
| 15:32 | < Takyoji> | What would be a REGEX for getting text between: <!-- START sample --> AND <!-- END sample --> ? |
| 15:33 | < MyCatVerbs> | Which bit do you need? The AND? |
| 15:33 | < Takyoji> | Where the AND is |
| 15:34 | < MyCatVerbs> | <!-- START sample -->([^<]*)<!-- END sample --> would sort-of do it, except that it wouldn't work if people put <'s in there. |
| 15:35 | <@jerith> | (.*?) should do it. |
| 15:36 | <@jerith> | Just replace MCV's parenthesised bit. |
| 15:36 | < MyCatVerbs> | ? What's the question mark in there for? * already implies {0,inf} |
| 15:36 | <@jerith> | The *? is a non-greedy version of *. |
| 15:36 | < MyCatVerbs> | Ahhhh. Spiffy, thank you. |
| 15:36 | < Takyoji> | also, doWarning: preg_match(): Unknown modifier '(' |
| 15:36 | < Takyoji> | bah, |
| 15:36 | < Takyoji> | I mean: |
| 15:36 | < Takyoji> | Warning: preg_match(): Unknown modifier '(' |
| 15:37 | < Takyoji> | I'm using it in PHP BTW |
| 15:38 | < MyCatVerbs> | What the Hell? Er, try escaping the (). PHP might have a b0rky regex flavour. |
| 15:39 | <@jerith> | preg is pcre -- the () should be good there. |
| 15:39 | <@jerith> | Takyoji: Check the docs -- I don't know PHP's regex stuff. |
| 15:39 | < Takyoji> | Actually, here's something I found from somewhere else, but doesn't work: |
| 15:39 | < Takyoji> | /<!--\s+BEGIN $handle\s+-->(.*)\n\s*<!--\s+END $handle\s+-->/sm |
| 15:40 | <@Serah> | That is a regex? |
| 15:40 | <@Serah> | I need stronger drugs. |
| 15:40 | < Takyoji> | It still applies to the same rules, but it's more Perl-ish or somethig.. |
| 15:40 | < Takyoji> | xD |
| 15:41 | <@jerith> | The \s matches all whitespace. |
| 15:41 | < Takyoji> | http://us2.php.net/manual/en/function.preg-match.php |
| 15:41 | < MyCatVerbs> | Serah: jah, \s+ is the idiomatic "one or more space characters". |
| 15:41 | <@jerith> | And it does multipline as well. |
| 15:42 | < MyCatVerbs> | $handle is the idiomatic "make my regex fucking slow, please" |
| 15:42 | <@jerith> | MCV: One or more whitespae chars. That typically includes \t, \n and \r. |
| 15:42 | < MyCatVerbs> | jerith: you forgot \f and \v. ;) |
| 15:42 | < Takyoji> | I meant this actually ($handle, changed): /<!--\s+BEGIN sample\s+-->(.*)\n\s*<!--\s+END sample\s+-->/sm |
| 15:42 | <@jerith> | The $handle is a variable expansion, I asume. |
| 15:43 | < Takyoji> | yes, in PHP |
| 15:46 | < Takyoji> | are the '+''s necessary? |
| 15:46 | < Takyoji> | oh, those quantifiers.. |
| 15:46 | <@jerith> | Takyoji: You may want to read a good regex tutorial... |
| 15:47 | < Takyoji> | k |
| 15:50 | < MyCatVerbs> | Takyoji: + means "one or more of" |
| 15:50 | < MyCatVerbs> | Takyoji: * means "zero or more of" |
| 15:50 | < Takyoji> | Yea, I have a ref sheet. |
| 15:51 | < MyCatVerbs> | So \s+ means "read one or more lumps of whitespace. Any number of spaces are equivalent to a single space. Secretly this thing is actually a C compiler." |
| 16:50 | | Reiver is now known as ReivZzz |
| 17:07 | | You're now known as TheWatcher[afk] |
| 18:32 | | You're now known as TheWatcher |
| 18:45 | | Janus [~Cerulean@Nightstar-10302.columbus.res.rr.com] has joined #Code |
| 19:27 | | Takyoji is now known as Takyoji[away] |
| 19:30 | | AnnoDomini [~farkoff@Nightstar-29186.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #Code |
| 19:30 | | mode/#code [+o AnnoDomini] by ChanServ |
| 19:31 | | KBot [~karma.bot@Nightstar-29186.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #Code |
| 19:31 | | KarmaBot [~karma.bot@Nightstar-29302.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Ping Timeout] |
| 19:32 | | KBot is now known as KarmaBot |
| 19:32 | | Shell [~farkoff@Nightstar-29302.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Ping Timeout] |
| 19:32 | | AnnoDomini is now known as Shell |
| 20:23 | | GeekSoldier_ [~Rob@Nightstar-6669.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #code |
| 20:24 | | GeekSoldier [~Rob@Nightstar-4531.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping Timeout] |
| 20:44 | | Takyoji[away] is now known as Takyoji |
| 21:46 | | * Serah nibbles on ToxicFrog. |
| 21:49 | | * ToxicFrog squeaks |
| 21:49 | | Raif [~corvusign@Admin.Nightstar.Net] has quit [Quit: A trebuchet is not a marital aid. Many bothans died to bring us this information.] |
| 21:54 | | Pi [~sysop@Nightstar-6875.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #code |
| 21:54 | | mode/#code [+o Pi] by ChanServ |
| 21:54 | | TakyojiClone [~Takyoji@Nightstar-25812.dhcp.roch.mn.charter.com] has joined #code |
| 21:55 | | Takyoji [~Takyoji@Nightstar-25812.dhcp.roch.mn.charter.com] has quit [Ping Timeout] |
| 22:12 | | You're now known as TheWatcher[T-2] |
| 22:17 | | You're now known as TheWatcher[zZzZ] |
| 22:17 | | Shell is now known as Yahir |
| 22:23 | | MahalBedd is now known as Mahal |
| 22:29 | | Chalcedon [~Chalcedon@Nightstar-2310.ue.woosh.co.nz] has quit [Quit: Gone] |
| 22:39 | | * Serah nuzzles ToxicFrog |
| 22:39 | | * Serah is absentminded, it seems. |
| 22:44 | | Chalcedon [~Chalcedon@Nightstar-2310.ue.woosh.co.nz] has joined #code |
| 22:44 | | mode/#code [+o Chalcedon] by ChanServ |
| 22:44 | | Yahir [~farkoff@Nightstar-29186.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Connection reset by peer] |
| 22:44 | | AnnoDomini [~farkoff@Nightstar-29186.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #Code |
| 22:44 | | mode/#code [+o AnnoDomini] by ChanServ |
| 22:47 | | AnnoDomini is now known as Yahir |
| 22:58 | | Mahal is now known as MahalGone |
| 23:04 | | Vornicus-Latens is now known as Vornicus |
| 23:11 | | MahalGone [~Mahal@Nightstar-12512.worldnet.co.nz] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep] |
| --- Log closed Sun Apr 29 00:00:03 2007 |