| --- Log opened Wed Nov 06 00:00:39 2013 |
| 00:24 | <@celticminstrel> | i18n doesn't even make sense. |
| 00:26 | <&McMartin> | The abbreviation, or internationalization generally (as opposed to localization?) |
| 00:26 | <@celticminstrel> | The abbreviation. |
| 00:27 | <&McMartin> | >>> len("nternationalizatio") |
| 00:27 | <&McMartin> | 18 |
| 00:27 | <@celticminstrel> | Yeah. |
| 00:27 | <@celticminstrel> | I just did that too. |
| 00:27 | <@celticminstrel> | Still doesn't make sense though. :P |
| 00:33 | <@TheWatcher> | Why not? How many other words do you know that start with i, end in n, and have 18 chars betwixt? |
| 00:34 | | Vornicus [vorn@Nightstar-sn7kve.sd.cox.net] has quit [[NS] Quit: Leaving] |
| 00:39 | <@gnolam> | And how many other abbreviations follow that format? None. And I pray to Yog-Sothoth that it stays that way. |
| 00:39 | <&McMartin> | l10n. |
| 00:43 | <@celticminstrel> | Heh. |
| 00:47 | | You're now known as TheWatcher[T-2] |
| 00:52 | <&ToxicFrog> | McMartin: it's been the TriOp logo since, well, forever |
| 00:52 | <&ToxicFrog> | What's new is the rainbow colour scheme |
| 00:52 | <&McMartin> | ... really? |
| 00:52 | <&McMartin> | Until today Pidgin and GTalk have been marking that with a photo of you. |
| 00:56 | <&ToxicFrog> | Well, I rainbowized it 10-11 |
| 00:56 | <&ToxicFrog> | And have not touched it since |
| 00:56 | <&ToxicFrog> | So at a guess, today is the day Google fixed some kind of issue related to synchronizing avatars between gtalk and whereverthefuck it's actually stored. |
| 01:01 | | You're now known as TheWatcher[zZzZ] |
| 01:07 | <&ToxicFrog> | And before then it had been the plain green logo for, well, years |
| 01:07 | <&ToxicFrog> | At least according to my end of things |
| 01:09 | <&McMartin> | Wacky |
| 01:11 | <&ToxicFrog> | (I rainbowized it for NCOD after finding a nice vector version that could be easily turned into an alpha channel, and I'm not sure if I'm going to change it back at some point; I rather like it) |
| 01:12 | <&McMartin> | I read it as an RGB colorspace~ |
| 01:18 | <@celticminstrel> | ...what's TF talking about? |
| 01:20 | <&McMartin> | His Google Talk icon, which mysteriously changed to me to its current value from one that apparently has been unused for years. |
| 01:31 | <&ToxicFrog> | McMartin: it kind of is; I told GIMP to do a radial gradient fill from H=0 to H=1 |
| 01:31 | | Derakon[AFK] is now known as Derakon |
| 01:32 | <&ToxicFrog> | In other news,I think I've finally figured out the syntax for backrefs and temporary fields in vstruct |
| 01:32 | <&ToxicFrog> | counted_string = vstruct.unpack(".size:u4 string:$.size", buf).string |
| 01:33 | <&ToxicFrog> | This has also caused me to realize that I think I need a syntax for "this is the actual return value" |
| 01:33 | <&ToxicFrog> | E.g. ".size:u4 =:s$.size, but that's kind of ugly |
| 01:44 | <@Azash> | If anyone here wants an intro to crypto, the slides for our course look pretty good http://www.cs.helsinki.fi/u/karvi/advanced_1_13.pdf |
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| 02:08 | <&ToxicFrog> | (I welcome alternate suggestions for the syntax) |
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| 16:17 | < JustBob> | For the purposes of writing decent hard near-future scifi... When does #code think we'll have reasonable expert systems? This is a drop and run question, though; I've got class in a bit. |
| 16:18 | < JustBob> | "Expert system" in the sense that it's not a true artificial intelligence, but capable of "learning" and providing input. Say, you go, "Do a search of background records for traces of MOX fuel movement through all entry control points," and the system is smart enough to go, "MOX; mixed oxide fuel. Used: Nuclear reactors. Characteristics: X, Y, Z. Searching databases for items matching X, Y, |
| 16:18 | < JustBob> | and Z moving through radiological scanners at entry points..." |
| 16:22 | < AnnoDomini> | I remember some people having done a pretty good attempt at making a Civilization I AI that learns by reading the manual. |
| 16:22 | | * AnnoDomini makes a guess: 50 years. |
| 16:24 | < JustBob> | My... Criterion, I suppose, is to presuppose that there exist computer systems that which are not AI, i.e. no independent creativity, but are otherwise capable of engaging with human users to the point where some people legitimately think that they're alive. But instead of using, say, true creativity, they use fairly well-writing, and self-written hierarchies of response, etc. |
| 16:25 | < JustBob> | There is a further presupposition, later on, that one of these expert assistance systems "comes alive." |
| 16:25 | < JustBob> | In the sense of achieving sufficient complexity to start emulating originality, to the point where people can't tell between it and a normal person. |
| 16:26 | < JustBob> | (At the moment, I have this nominally pegged as the computer system of a major warship.) |
| 16:27 | | Kindamoody|autojoin is now known as Kindamoody |
| 16:29 | < JustBob> | Hrm. I may have to caveat the independent creativity bit; we already have 'independent' systems that understand if you tell it to get to point B from point A, it will navigate its way there without you directing it. |
| 16:29 | < JustBob> | Independent problem solving. That would be a better term. |
| 16:29 | < ErikMesoy> | Independent problem-solving-method-developing? |
| 16:30 | < JustBob> | Something like that. It can problem solve, but it can't develop entirely new problem solving methods on an intuitive basis. It would have to try literally every option before then, weighing them appropriately for chances of success. |
| 16:33 | < ErikMesoy> | I think I'll reiterate the advice to show, don't tell. Instead of writing that independent systems have been around X years with Y capability, mention specific advances and unsolved problems, then leave the exact year of development fuzzy. |
| 16:34 | < Syka> | JustBob: really, we have that *now* |
| 16:34 | < Syka> | see: wolfram alpha |
| 16:34 | < Syka> | then it's just a matter of tying in some data sources |
| 16:35 | < Syka> | I mean, it wouldn't be beyond today's technology for something like that, if you are able to define it accurately |
| 16:36 | < ErikMesoy> | I think the ability to define it accurately is a large part of what Bob wants in these systems. |
| 16:37 | < JustBob> | Erik - Problem is, AI development is a key point in the plotline. |
| 16:37 | < JustBob> | Hence why I'm trying to pin it down reasonably well and define it. |
| 16:38 | < AnnoDomini> | Are you NaNoing? |
| 16:38 | < Syka> | ErikMesoy: well, all you need is a shitload of data |
| 16:39 | < Syka> | eg. data which turns "MOX" into "mixed oxide fuel" |
| 16:39 | < JustBob> | Syka - It doesn't really exist on W|A on the basis that I can't tell it to find 'every radioactive material transfer sorted by probability of terrorist movement' and have it decide what the hell 'radioactive material' means, what threshold values to assign to a 'yes no maybe?' decision set, and it can't independently go, 'Okay, so, movements associated with agencies X and Y are legit ones, but |
| 16:39 | < JustBob> | Z agency are iffy, and A agency are really suspicious...' |
| 16:39 | < Syka> | that's because Wolfram Alpha is a mathematics engine |
| 16:39 | < JustBob> | Nor can it independently decide if I mean 'the tritium in a rifle optic' or 'forty kilograms of refined uranium' |
| 16:40 | < JustBob> | I cannot actually envision any modern system capable of doing that, to be honest. |
| 16:40 | < JustBob> | Anno - I was going to, but got eaten by classes. So I'm just refining things now for a later write-run. |
| 16:40 | < Syka> | if you have, for example, the data, then tying it in is a matter of teaching it to look for things in this system |
| 16:40 | < JustBob> | Speaking of classes... Off I go. :p |
| 16:40 | < Syka> | for example, if you look for MOX, if it knows it can find more data in the scanner logs, etc |
| 16:41 | < JustBob> | I'll be back in a couple hours. But feel free to argue without me. :p |
| 16:52 | < ErikMesoy> | Ionno mang, as far as I'm concerned we might have AI tomorrow if it turns out that some sufficiently clever neckbeard had the right idea for how to do it and started writing last year. |
| 16:54 | <@gnolam> | Ionno mang? |
| 16:55 | < ErikMesoy> | I don't know, man |
| 16:55 | <@gnolam> | Also: hahahaha no. |
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| 18:50 | <@Azash> | http://programmingisterrible.com/post/65781074112/devils-dictionary-of-programmi ng |
| 18:55 | <@gnolam> | Heh. |
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| 20:14 | | * gnolam eyes the rail we-promise-we're-not-a-monopoly-anymore-but-we-totally-are. |
| 20:15 | <@gnolam> | Besides letters from the language of Glory and Heroes, punctuation and so on, you're not allowed to use 'w' in passwords. WTF? |
| 20:19 | <@Tamber> | Passords? |
| 20:40 | <&McMartin> | Decidedly not Made Of Wynne |
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| 21:59 | | * Derakon pokes at a side problem. |
| 22:00 | <&Derakon> | I'm representing a gridded map as two arrays: one holds the type of the tile in the map, the other holds the wall information as a bitfield. |
| 22:00 | <&Derakon> | E.g. 0b1111 means all four walls are present, 0b0101 means only the right and bottom walls are. |
| 22:00 | <&Derakon> | I want an operation that does "set this bit to zero regardless of the value of the rest of the field". |
| 22:01 | <@Tamber> | xor and some powers of 2? |
| 22:01 | <@Tamber> | (I think that's how it's usually done.) |
| 22:02 | <&Derakon> | Mmm, 15 ^ 4 == 11; 11 ^ 4 == 15. |
| 22:02 | <&Derakon> | I want to be able to blindly say "put no wall here". |
| 22:03 | <@Tamber> | Oh. OR to set it, AND to clear it, sorry. |
| 22:03 | <@Tamber> | I knew it had something to do with an OR, somewhere. |
| 22:03 | <&McMartin> | XOR is toggle. |
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| 22:03 | <&McMartin> | x &= ~mask |
| 22:03 | <&McMartin> | sets every 1 bit in 'mask' to 0 in x |
| 22:04 | <&Derakon> | Ah! That does it. |
| 22:04 | <&Derakon> | The inversion of the mask is what was needed. Thankee. |
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| 23:08 | <&McMartin> | More stuff re: lavabit |
| 23:08 | <&McMartin> | http://arstechnica.com/security/2013/11/op-ed-a-critique-of-lavabit/ |
| 23:08 | <&McMartin> | I think after this I agree that the project should not be revived~ |
| 23:24 | < simon_> | interesting problem (for me, at least): I've got a datatype command = Move of int | Turn (* 90 degrees left *) | Repeat of int * command list |
| 23:24 | < simon_> | and I've got a program, [Move 1, Turn, Turn, Turn, Move 2, Repeat (2, [Move 1, Turn, Turn, Turn, Move 2])] |
| 23:25 | < simon_> | if it weren't for Repeats, there's a simple way to turn two Turns into one by subsequently walking backwards |
| 23:25 | < simon_> | (or opposite of the direction you were previously walking, actually) |
| 23:25 | < simon_> | e.g. [Turn, Turn, Move 5] = [Move ~5] |
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| 23:26 | < simon_> | if each value constructor has the value of 1, a program's size can easily be measured |
| 23:27 | < simon_> | now, the question is, when introducing Repeats, are there always equivalent programs with no double-Turns, and are there always equivalent programs with no double-Turns that have equal size or smaller? |
| 23:29 | < simon_> | my current solution to removing double-Turns currently requires that I sometimes end my repeats with Turn, Turn. |
| 23:30 | < simon_> | my answers so far is: yes, and probably not. |
| 23:34 | < simon_> | sorry, (* 90 degrees right*). |
| 23:49 | < simon_> | http://lpaste.net/95304 -- in haskell, instead. |
| 23:50 | <~Vornicus> | Okay so making sure here: you have a list of moves, all moves and left turns. |
| 23:50 | <~Vornicus> | Now, you have the ability to also move backwards, and you wish to optimize your move list. |
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| 23:52 | < simon_> | yup |
| 23:53 | < simon_> | and the optimization I'm looking for in particular is removing two Turns in a row by walking backwards from that point instead (backwards being relative to whichever way I was walking just before, so this can alternate) |
| 23:54 | < simon_> | so I'm pretty sure that I either 1) must end some Repeats with "Turn, Turn" to compensate for having walked backwards when entering them, or 2) Providing a program with a higher cost (defined as 1 point per instruction). |
| 23:56 | < simon_> | I think the problem is: if I do "Turn, Turn" just before entering a Repeat, and simply reversing the direction when entering the Repeat, then the second iteration of the Repeat will not have that "Turn, Turn" compensating code, but it will have the opposite direction. so I would have to insert compensating code at the end of the Repeat. |
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| 23:57 | < simon_> | e.g. [Turn, Turn, Repeat (2, [Move 2, Turn])] is not equivalent to [Repeat (2, [Move ~2, Turn])] |
| 23:58 | <~Vornicus> | I see. |
| 23:58 | < simon_> | it is, however, equivalent to [Repeat (2, [Move ~2, Turn, Turn, Turn])] |
| 23:58 | < simon_> | (I think. argh, I'm tired.) |
| 23:58 | < simon_> | so basically this is the last assignment in the exam for "Introduction to Programming". it's not intended to be this difficult, as the "single turns only" assignment was made before Repeats were introduced. :) |
| 23:59 | <~Vornicus> | The other thing is unless your thing is move turn turn move turn turn turn you're just putting off the inevitable. |
| 23:59 | < simon_> | yeah |
| 23:59 | <~Vornicus> | because move turn turn move turn move becomes move -move turn turn turn |
| 23:59 | <~Vornicus> | move |
| --- Log closed Thu Nov 07 00:00:09 2013 |