| --- Log opened Thu Oct 02 00:00:18 2008 |
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| 00:36 | <@Doctor_Nick> | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VhDRVKDcXQo |
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| 09:49 | <@McMartin> | Yay, a competitor used my conversation libraries |
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| 12:45 | < AttillaUni> | Behold the power of for while loops |
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| 13:18 | <@gnolam> | ... for while? |
| 13:21 | < AttillaUni> | or whatever |
| 13:22 | < AttillaUni> | Whatever you call them, I assume they're called for while loops. |
| 13:22 | < AttillaUni> | Or maybe for do |
| 13:22 | < AttillaUni> | Because for while would make no sense |
| 13:23 | <@gnolam> | For loops? :) |
| 13:24 | < AttillaUni> | That might be them. Yes. |
| 13:24 | < AttillaUni> | Anyway by combination of for loops and arrays I can compare all sets of certain data found within logically tabled but not particularly sorted data. Hooray. |
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| 14:32 | <@AnnoDomini> | AttillaUni: Suleman isn't a spambot, even though Mischief-grade arrogant. |
| 14:32 | <@AnnoDomini> | Not that I particularly care that he got banned. :P |
| 14:32 | <+Shoukanjuu> | >_> |
| 14:33 | <+Shoukanjuu> | So...the JP Nintendo press conference. |
| 14:33 | <@AnnoDomini> | I don't particularly care about it. |
| 14:33 | <+Shoukanjuu> | Sin and Punishment 2. >_> |
| 14:36 | <+Shoukanjuu> | Always nice to have another Treasure game. |
| 14:36 | <+Shoukanjuu> | Maybe this one will actually be released here. |
| 14:38 | < AttillaUni> | Whoops, well you can unban him if you want. |
| 14:39 | < AttillaUni> | All these spambots are getting a little heaviy. |
| 14:39 | <+Shoukanjuu> | AD: What DO you particularly care about? >_> |
| 14:42 | <@AnnoDomini> | AttillaUni: I don't think that's reversible. He'll just reregister when he remembers he signed up to a site in the first place somewhere in the grim darkness of the far future. |
| 14:42 | <@AnnoDomini> | Shoukanjuu: Uh... ponies? |
| 14:43 | <+Shoukanjuu> | ?\o_?/? |
| 14:43 | <@AnnoDomini> | But right now, I have a club meeting to attend. |
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| 18:07 | | Vornotron is now known as Vornicus |
| 19:12 | <@gnolam> | Mmm, reference counting... |
| 19:13 | <@gnolam> | AnnoDomini: club any seals? |
| 19:14 | <+Shoukanjuu> | Why do people feel the need to protect what can't protect itself, outside our own species? I can understand wanted to do this inside humanity, but really. Seals? Whales? Why? |
| 19:23 | <@ToxicFrog> | Off the top of my head, I can come up with four different reasons. |
| 19:23 | <@ToxicFrog> | - they're cute. They inspire the "aaaw cuddly" reaction. |
| 19:23 | <+Shoukanjuu> | Not an excuse. It goes agaisnt instinct. |
| 19:24 | <@ToxicFrog> | against instict? |
| 19:24 | <+Shoukanjuu> | AGAINST. |
| 19:24 | <@ToxicFrog> | The "cute reaction" is an instictive trigger for protection of babies. |
| 19:24 | <+Shoukanjuu> | Oh. Silly me. |
| 19:24 | <+Shoukanjuu> | Continue. |
| 19:24 | | * Shoukanjuu feels like an idiot, but he IS a total idiot, so. |
| 19:24 | <@ToxicFrog> | Stuff like kittens and seals sets off some of the same triggers that human babies are meant to. |
| 19:24 | <@ToxicFrog> | Physically, behaviourally, or both. |
| 19:25 | <@ToxicFrog> | (2) Enlightened self-interest. Fuck up the ecosystem too badly and the next species to go extinct could be us. |
| 19:25 | | * Shoukanjuu nods. |
| 19:25 | < Vornicus> | This can happen in many ways. |
| 19:26 | <@ToxicFrog> | (3) Religeous or moral conviction. A belief that, say, God created humanity to help preserve the biosphere - ISTR that's an explicit tenet of christianity in particular, although precious few of them act like it - or as an impulse to make amends for, say, the dodo and the passenger pigeon. |
| 19:26 | < Vornicus> | Though Star Trek 4 scenarios are not that likely. |
| 19:26 | <@ToxicFrog> | (4) Curiosity. Destroying potential information sources is abhorrent. |
| 19:27 | <+Shoukanjuu> | Now, this could be done by just leaving them alone, couldn't it? |
| 19:27 | <@McMartin> | (1.5) We've been symbiotic with domesticated wolves etc. for long enough that we could easily have had some pressure towards it. |
| 19:27 | <@McMartin> | Shoukanjuu: Not any more. |
| 19:27 | <+Shoukanjuu> | The problem is that some people won't. :/ |
| 19:28 | <@McMartin> | Having a refrigerator in the 50s helped destroy the biosphere in Antarctica. |
| 19:28 | <+Shoukanjuu> | It's natural for species to phase out or change, but artificial additions, namely poaching... |
| 19:28 | <+Shoukanjuu> | \o/ |
| 19:28 | <@ToxicFrog> | So, that's four, as McM demonstrates there are others - those are just the ones that spring immediately to mind. |
| 19:29 | <+Shoukanjuu> | Good enough for me. |
| 19:29 | <@gnolam> | Shoukanjuu: and barring major natural disasters striking geographically limited populations, it's natural for that process to take many thousands of years. |
| 19:29 | <@gnolam> | Not "a couple of species per year". |
| 19:29 | <+Shoukanjuu> | which is why I said something about poaching, stopping that >_> |
| 19:30 | <+Shoukanjuu> | Surely all endangered species weren't done by natural causes |
| 19:30 | <@ToxicFrog> | Yeah, but it's not just poaching, or other stuff that actively attacks a species |
| 19:31 | <@ToxicFrog> | Case in point: <McMartin> Having a refrigerator in the 50s helped destroy the biosphere in Antarctica. |
| 19:31 | < Vornicus> | I'd estimate 90% of endangered and extinct species are there directly or indirectly because of human interaction. |
| 19:31 | <+Shoukanjuu> | Right. |
| 19:31 | <@ToxicFrog> | Drive a car? Congratulations, the polar bears hate you. |
| 19:31 | <@ToxicFrog> | Etc |
| 19:31 | <+Shoukanjuu> | But what does the polar bear do to me? I'd rather ride a bike anyway, but further than 20 miles? |
| 19:32 | <@ToxicFrog> | And given a choice between (1) catastrophic, global changes in human behaviour and ways of life and (2) conservations efforts that seek to ameliorate that without necessarily changing it, (2) is almost certainly easier. |
| 19:32 | <@gnolam> | Poaching is a minor concern for most species actually. Habitat destruction is #1. |
| 19:32 | <+Shoukanjuu> | That's what I needed. Always nice to get some input from people who don't hate everything. |
| 19:33 | <+Shoukanjuu> | Or rather, unconditionally hate everything |
| 19:33 | <@gnolam> | Of course, everyone except China refuses to do anything about the root cause of /all/ these problems (and the problems of resource scarcity/depletion) - way too many people. :P |
| 19:33 | <@ToxicFrog> | As for "what do the polar bears do for me" - see the earlier answers re: why work to preserve species when you get no immediate personal benefit from it |
| 19:34 | <@ToxicFrog> | gnolam: every government, perhaps |
| 19:34 | <+Shoukanjuu> | Hmm... |
| 19:34 | <@gnolam> | We need a good plague again... |
| 19:34 | <@McMartin> | You First (tm) |
| 19:34 | <@ToxicFrog> | There are plenty of people who do, but there's also plenty of people who think that having 6+ children is a Moral Imperative or God's Will or The Only Way To Defeat The Steenking Moslemns, etc. |
| 19:34 | <@McMartin> | "Muslins". |
| 19:35 | <@McMartin> | Deuterotomy 22:11, bitchez, etc. |
| 19:35 | <@McMartin> | (Note: Yes, this is a gag. To save you the lookup, that's the verse condemning wearing wool/linen blends) |
| 19:36 | <@ToxicFrog> | I've always wondered about that one. |
| 19:36 | <@ToxicFrog> | A lot of the weird arbitrary rules make sense as either health codes, power management by the guys on top, or "ick" reactions |
| 19:37 | <@ToxicFrog> | But blended cloth? Really? |
| 19:37 | <+Shoukanjuu> | <,,. |
| 19:37 | <+Shoukanjuu> | Mmm. |
| 19:37 | < Vornicus> | Guild rules. :P |
| 19:37 | <@McMartin> | Guilds are way later in the tech tree. |
| 19:38 | <+Shoukanjuu> | XD |
| 19:38 | <+Shoukanjuu> | Level 19 Advertiser with maxed Sales skill! |
| 19:39 | | * ToxicFrog sighs at Lua-L |
| 19:39 | <@ToxicFrog> | Reading comprehension. |
| 19:39 | <@ToxicFrog> | You fail at it. |
| 19:39 | < Vornicus> | Lua-L? |
| 19:40 | <@ToxicFrog> | In the middle of a discussion on Javascript to Lua translation, someone has posted a lengthy treatise on translating Lua to Javascript. |
| 19:40 | <@ToxicFrog> | The Lua mailing list. |
| 19:40 | < Vornicus> | pfff |
| 19:40 | <+Shoukanjuu> | ....Wouldn't that ultimately help? |
| 19:40 | < Vornicus> | Maybe he went "well... I don't know about /that/ direction, but here's my notes for the opposite." |
| 19:40 | <@ToxicFrog> | Nope. |
| 19:40 | <+Shoukanjuu> | If you can translate Lua to Javascript, wouldn't that be a nice resource when doing otherwise? |
| 19:41 | <@ToxicFrog> | He siezed on one sentence about the semantic differences between lua and javascript variables, totally missed the subject: line, and went off about mapping Lua constructs onto JS ones and implementing Lua features in terms of JS. |
| 19:42 | <@ToxicFrog> | Shoukanjuu: not necessarily. It's not symmetric. Being able to go lua->JS implies nothing about ability to do the converse. |
| 19:42 | <@ToxicFrog> | It's not a simple lexical transform, there are fundamental semantic differences in the behaviour of the two languages, for all their similarities. |
| 19:42 | <+Shoukanjuu> | Hmm. I suppose that it's the same with spoken languages, too. |
| 19:43 | <@ToxicFrog> | Not necessarily, I think |
| 19:43 | <@ToxicFrog> | To be able to translate between two languages, you need to know them both |
| 19:43 | <@ToxicFrog> | Which implies at least some ability to go both ways, even if you might be better at one direction |
| 19:43 | <+Shoukanjuu> | Translation has to take into effect grammatical rules |
| 19:44 | <+Shoukanjuu> | Or else you end up with severely jumbled sentences at best. >.> |
| 19:44 | <@ToxicFrog> | But, say we're doing Lua translation by parsing Lua source, then emitting semantically equivalent JS source or bytecode |
| 19:44 | <@ToxicFrog> | That doesn't really help go the other way |
| 19:44 | < Vornicus> | does JS have a bytecode format? |
| 19:45 | <@ToxicFrog> | I thought it was a source->bytecode->execution language, not an AST walk or line-by-line execute... |
| 19:45 | <+Shoukanjuu> | I see what you're saying...This is for people who don't quite know Lua, but know JS |
| 19:45 | <@ToxicFrog> | I'm honestly not sure what the use case is |
| 19:45 | <@ToxicFrog> | Whether it's "we want to write in JS but run in Lua", or "we have an existing JS codebase we don't want to convert by hand", or something else |
| 19:45 | | * Vornicus should check for a js bytecode standard; does not believe it exists. |
| 19:47 | <@ToxicFrog> | Aha |
| 19:48 | < Vornicus> | If there isn't a standard then there's not much point. |
| 19:48 | <@ToxicFrog> | It looks like the answer is: most (all?) existing JS interpreters work by compiling to bytecode and then running it in a VM (I'm also seeing JS to JVM bytecode compilers), *but* there is no standard, each one uses its own format. |
| 19:48 | <@ToxicFrog> | The JS standard says nothing about implementation. |
| 19:48 | < Vornicus> | Which is about what I expected. |
| 19:48 | <@ToxicFrog> | (for that matter, neither does the Lua standard, but everyone uses the bytecode format used by the reference VM and its documented) |
| 19:48 | <@ToxicFrog> | (documents) |
| 19:49 | <@ToxicFrog> | (...so far) |
| 19:49 | < Vornicus> | Okay. |
| 19:49 | <@ToxicFrog> | (...and apart from deliberately obfuscated or custom modified interpreters) |
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| 20:27 | <@AnnoDomini> | gnolam: No, but I did have fun. |
| 20:27 | <@AnnoDomini> | Playing Munchkin and rolling up characters. |
| 21:06 | <@AnnoDomini> | We've been making characters for a reversed roles game of DnD - the players being monstruous races. |
| 21:06 | <@AnnoDomini> | So far, we've got one kobold (myself), one half-orc and three orcs. |
| 21:07 | <@AnnoDomini> | There was a particularly funny moment when someone made a pun on the Polish translation of "Free Willy", or more accurately, its title. |
| 21:08 | <@AnnoDomini> | See, the Polish title is "Uwolni? ork?" which means "[to] free the orca". Someone said, on topic of the number of orcs in the team, "Uwolni? orka" which you can guess what means. :) |
| 21:09 | <@AnnoDomini> | It was much funnier than I tell it now. |
| 21:11 | <+Shoukanjuu> | >_> |
| 21:12 | <@AnnoDomini> | I'm the only one with a positive Intelligence modifier. |
| 21:13 | <@AnnoDomini> | Closest after me is the Orc Cleric/Wizard with an Int 11. |
| 21:15 | <+Shoukanjuu> | .....wow. |
| 21:15 | <@AnnoDomini> | I am the proud owner of THREE languages spoken. |
| 21:15 | <@AnnoDomini> | I can generally communicate with this band of savages using Orcish. |
| 21:46 | | * gnolam hahs at Windows Update. |
| 21:47 | <@gnolam> | Trust 'em to make an update to the updater look like the service has been hijacked... |
| 21:55 | <@McMartin> | Go team |
| 21:56 | <@gnolam> | Nice to see the usability still sucks as well. No, wait, it isn't. |
| 21:59 | <@gnolam> | (Seriously, who the fuck thought it was a good idea to force users to left-click to get a javascripted popup window with a link to the KB article instead of just having the link itself?) |
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| 22:01 | <@gnolam> | (And while we're at it, why does it persist in offering patches for software I DON'T HAVE?) |
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| 22:44 | | * Vornicus args. Wants to art for one of his games, sucks at it. |
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| 23:55 | <@gnolam> | I feel your pain. |
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| --- Log closed Fri Oct 03 00:00:27 2008 |